>> HELLO, EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

POPE FRANCIS, THE LEADER OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS DEAD.

WE LOOK AT THE LATEST FROM VATICAN CITY.

> >> REFLECTIONS FROM CARDINAL BLASE CUPICH, WOULD BE ONE OF THE FEW PEOPLE TO CHOOSE THE NEXT POPE.

> >> INSIGHT FROM A REPORTER TO INTERVIEW FRANCIS AND WAS KNIGHTED BY HIM .

> >> RELIGIOUS SCHOLAR DAVID GIBSON JOINED ME ON POPE FRANCIS IS MORAL AUTHORITY IN A WORLD OF STRONGMEN.

> >> WE LOOK BACK AT CHRISTIANE'S CONVERSATION WITH FILMMAKER WIM WENDERS ABOUT HIS REFILLING PORTRAIT OF THE POPE AS YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN HIM BEFORE.

> >> AMANPOUR & CO IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS .

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM .

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF MARK J. BLECHNER .

MARK J. BLECHNER .

THE FILOMEN M. GOSTINO FOUNDATION .

D THE FILOMEN M. GOSTINO FOUNDATION .

D THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND .

CHARLES ROSENBLUM .

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG .

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS .

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

POPE FRANCIS, VOICE FOR THE POOR AND THE CATALYST FOR CHANGE AS THE HEAD OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS DIED.

THE VATICAN ANNOUNCED THAT THE POPE PASSED AWAY ON EASTER MONDAY, THE MORNING AFTER THE HOLIEST DAY IN THE CHRISTIAN YEAR.

AT 88 YEARS OLD, FRANCIS WAS BATTLING POOR HEALTH IN RECENT WEEKS THAT MANAGED TO MAKE A PUBLIC APPEARANCE ON EASTER SUNDAY, WHERE HE DELIGHTED CROWDS AT ST. PETER'S BASILICA IN ROME.

>> Translator: DEAR BROTHERS AND SISTERS, EASTER.

>> TOO SICK TO READ HIS FULL SPEECH, AND AID DELIVERED IT FOR HIM.

IN HIS FINAL MESSAGE TO THE PUBLIC, THE POPE CALLED FOR COMPASSION FOR MIGRANTS AND FOR AN END TO THE WARS IN UKRAINE, GAZA, AND SUDAN.

FRANCIS WILL BE BURIED SOMETIME LATER THIS WEEK AND A CONCLAVE WILL BEGIN TO CHOOSE THE NEXT LEADER OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

CARDINAL BLASE CUPICH OF CHICAGO WILL BE AT THE FUNERAL AND WILL ALSO TAKE PART IN THE CONCLAVE AND HE IS JOINING THE PROGRAM .

CARDINAL BLASE CUPICH, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US TODAY.

YOUR THOUGHTS, YOUR REFLECTIONS ON THE PASSING OF POPE FRANCIS ?

>> BIANNA, FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

THIS MORNING, WHEN I HEARD THE NEWS, I HAD TO SAY I WAS STUNNED AND SADDENED.

AS I REFLECT ON HIS LIFE AND MINISTRY, ESPECIALLY THESE LAST YEARS IN WHICH HE SERVED AS THE SUCCESSOR OF PETER, I COME AWAY WITH A GREAT SENSE OF GRATITUDE THAT I GOT TO BE A PART OF IT AND LIVE IN A TIME IN WHICH HE WAS POPE .

HE ENERGIZED THE CHURCH TO MOVE FORWARD.

HE GAVE US A MORE EXPANSIVE VIEW OF WHAT WEEK WOULD BE, ESPECIALLY AS HE CALLED US TO BE A FIELD HOSPITAL IN THE WORLD, TO REACH OUT TO PEOPLE WHO WERE SUFFERING BUT ALSO REMINDED US THAT THE NAME OF GOD IS MERCY.

FROM MY STANDPOINT, I JUST HAVE TO LOOK BACK ON THESE YEARS WITH A GREAT SENSE OF GRATITUDE THAT I LIVED IN A TIME IN WHICH HE ONCE THAT POPE .

>> HE WAS A FIRST IN SO MANY REGARDS, THE FIRST POPE FROM LATIN AMERICA, THE FIRST POPE IN 600 YEARS TO TAKE OVER AFTER A RETIREMENT OF HIS PREDECESSOR , AND THE FIRST TO TAKE ON THE NAME OF ST. FRANCIS OF ASSISI, THE 13TH-CENTURY SAINT OF THE POOR.

IN TAKING THAT NAME, I'M JUST CURIOUS, CARDINAL, FOR YOU, WAS THAT AN INDICATION OF WHAT HIS FOCUS, OF WHAT HIS PRIORITIES WOULD BE AS POPE?

>> WELL, HE MENTIONED THAT HE TOOK THAT NAME AFTER ONE OF THE CARDINALS DURING THE CONCLAVE AFTER HE WAS ELECTED SAID , DON'T FORGET ABOUT THE POOR.

THAT STUCK WITH HIM TO THE POINT WHERE IT MOVED AND PROMPTED HIM TO CHOOSE THE NAME OF FRANCIS, WHO IN FACT, WAS ALWAYS KNOWN IN ITALIAN AS THE , THE LITTLE POOR ONE WHO ASSOCIATED WITH THOSE WHO WERE BULLIED, EVEN THOUGH HE HIMSELF CAME FROM WEALTH AND PROMINENCE IN THE CITY OF ASSISI.

>> HAS SICK AS HE WAS, AND , OF COURSE, WE HAD COVERED HIS STAY IN THE HOSPITAL AND NOT KNOWING WHETHER OR NOT HE WOULD ACTUALLY BE DISCHARGED EARLIER THIS YEAR FROM THE HOSPITAL, HAVING SUCH A LENGTHY STAY -- THE FACT THAT HE MADE IT TO DELIVER THAT SPEECH ON EASTER SUNDAY YESTERDAY, TO ADDRESS THE MASSES, HE WAS WEAK BUT HE WAS STRONG IN SPIRIT FOR ALL OF THOSE WORSHIPERS TO SEE.

JUST TALK ABOUT WHAT THAT SAYS TO YOU, TO US, TO CATHOLICS AROUND THE WORLD ABOUT HIS CONVICTION TO HIS FAITH.

>> WELL, I THINK THAT YES, HIS MESSAGE WAS VERY IMPORTANT AND IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR HIM TO RAISE HIS VOICE ON BEHALF OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SUFFERING FROM WARS AND POVERTY WILL ALSO WHO ARE TRYING TO FIND A BETTER LIFE AS THEY MIGRATE.

THE OTHER THING THAT WE SAW THIS EASTER WAS NOT JUST THE WORDS, HEARING THE WORDS THAT HE GAVE US BUT HOW HE ACCOMPANIED PEOPLE EVEN TO THE LAST, WHERE HE WANTED TO HAVE A RIDE IN THE VATICAN SQUARE, TO BE WITH PEOPLE.

HE WANTED TO COME TO KNOW THAT HE WAS WITH THEM.

HE WAS A FELLOW PROGRAM WITH THEM.

I THINK THAT ALSO SAYS MUCH ABOUT HIS LEGACY.

HE WANTED TO ACCOMPANY PEOPLE AND HE TOLD US TO ACCOMPANY ONE ANOTHER BECAUSE WE ARE ALL FELLOW PILGRIMS.

>> AND, HE TOOK OVER AT THE TIME WHEN THERE WAS GREAT INTERNAL STRIFE AND DIVISION WITHIN THE CHURCH AND IN THE SECULAR WORLD AS WELL.

WE ARE JUST HOURS AFTER HIS PASSING BUT I AM CURIOUS TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS ON HIS CONTRIBUTION TO BE MORE INCLUSIVE, TO WORK ON SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT DROVE THE BIGGEST CRITICISM WITHIN THE CHURCH AND FROM OUTSIDE AS WELL .

>> WELL, HE HAD THE VISION OF THE SECOND VATICAN COUNCIL AND THAT IS WHAT, FOR ME, DREW ME IN A VERY CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM BECAUSE I SHARE THAT ASPIRATION AS WELL.

THE COUNCIL WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE LISTENED TO WITH THE JOYS AND HOPES, THE GRIEFS AND ANXIETIES OF PEOPLE IN THIS AGE AND WE WALK WITH THEM.

BUT ALSO, HE GAVE US AN UNDERSTANDING THAT WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE SUFFERING , HAVE A VOICE IN THE WORLD TODAY AND ARE NOT MARGINALIZED.

AND SO TIME AND AGAIN, HE REMINDED US OF THAT.

EVEN THOUGH THERE IS DIVISION IN THE WORLD AND EVEN IN THE CHURCH, HE TOLD US THAT, TIME AND AGAIN , THAT THE LORD PRAYED FOR UNITY WITHIN THE HUMAN FAMILY BEFORE HE DIED.

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE SHOULD PROMOTE.

>> MIGRATION AND THE PLIGHT OF MIGRANTS WAS NEAR AND DEAR TO HIM THROUGHOUT HIS TIME AS POPE AND EVEN FOR THE DECADES, AS WE KNOW, BEFORE AS A CARDINAL.

HE WAS A CHILD OF MIGRANTS, OF IMMIGRANTS FLEEING FASCIST ITALY FOR ARGENTINA AND AND A VISIT TO THE WHITE HOUSE UNDER RESIDENT OBAMA, POPE FRANCIS SAID THIS .

"AS THE SON OF AN IMMIGRANT FAMILY, I AM HAPPY TO BE A GUEST IN THIS COUNTRY, WHICH WAS LARGELY BUILT BY SUCH FAMILIES . "

MIGRATION IS SUCH A HOT BUTTON ISSUE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, AROUND THE WORLD.

AND, IT IS SOMETHING THAT HE TACKLED HEAD ON, EVEN WHEN HE KNEW THAT IT COULD LEAD TO CONFRONTATION TO SOME OF THE WORLD'S MOST POWERFUL LEADERS.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY ABOUT HIS CONVICTION?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT WHEN HE SPOKE TO THE JOINT SESSION OF CONGRESS, THE FIRST TIME THAT A POPE HAS EVER DONE THAT, HE RAISED THAT ISSUE.

HE REMINDED US AMERICANS POINT- BLANK THAT WE SHOULD BE ON THE SIDE OF MIGRANTS AND IMMIGRANTS BECAUSE WE ALL ARE MIGRANTS AND IMMIGRANTS HERE AND THE FRUIT OF THOSE WHO CAME ACROSS TO BE IN THIS COUNTRY.

SO, I THINK THAT HE JUST ASKED US TO BE HONEST WITH OURSELVES AND AUTHENTIC NOT TO FORGET OUR HERITAGE, NOT TO FORGET OUR ROOTS.

THAT WAS SO VERY IMPORTANT FOR HIM.

HE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE LEAD AUTHENTIC LIVES AND NOT GLOSS OVER THE DIFFICULTIES THAT PEOPLE ARE SUFFERING OR MAYBE DISTANCE OURSELVES FROM THOSE DIFFICULTIES.

>> IT IS SAFE TO SAY HE SPOKE OUT WHEN HE DISAGREED WITH WORLD LEADERS, INCLUDING THE PRESIDENTS OF THE UNITED STATES, SPECIFICALLY PRESIDENT TRUMP IN HIS FIRST ADMINISTRATION AND TERM AND IT APPEARS HE CARRIED THAT CONVENTION INTO HIS SECOND AS WELL.

I WANT TO REMIND OUR VIEWERS THAT IN 2016, HE TRAVELED TO THE U. S. AND MEXICO BORDER, CALLING FOR COMPASSION AND AID TO THOSE WHO SOUGHT TO BUILD WALLS, AND THAT THOSE PEOPLE WERE NOT CHRISTIAN AND THERE WERE BACK AND FORTH EXCHANGE BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND AS YOU KNOW, SHORTLY AFTER HIS INAUGURATION, VICE PRESIDENT JD VANCE, WHO HAS TAKEN ON THE CATHOLIC FAITH IN RECENT YEARS SUGGESTED THAT POPE FRANCIS WAS THE ONE WHO HAD HIS PRIORITIES ALL WRONG.

HERE IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> AS AN AMERICAN LEADER, BUT ALSO AS AN AMERICAN CITIZEN, YOUR COMPASSION BELONGS FIRST TO YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS.

IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU HATE PEOPLE FROM OUTSIDE OF YOUR OWN BORDERS, BUT THERE IS THIS OLD SCHOOL, I THINK IT IS A VERY CHRISTIAN CONCEPT, BY THE WAY, YOU LOVE YOUR FAMILY AND THEN YOU LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AND THEN YOU LOVE YOUR COMMUNITY AND THEN YOU LOVE YOUR FELLOW CITIZENS IN YOUR OWN COUNTRY AND THEN, AFTER THAT, YOU CAN FOCUS AND PRIORITIZE THE REST OF THE WORLD.

>> WE SHOULD NOTE THAT THE VICE PRESIDENT WAS VERY GRACIOUS FOLLOWING HIS MEETING YESTERDAY WITH POPE FRANCIS AT THE VATICAN AND OFFERED HIS WORDS OF CONDOLENCES AFTER NEWS OF HIS PASSING.

I'M JUST WONDERING, GIVEN WHAT YOU HEARD FROM THE VICE PRESIDENT, HOW DO YOU THINK THE POPE WOULD HAVE RESPONDED TO THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT HE HAS ALWAYS TALKED ABOUT THE FACT THAT LOVE IS NOT A ZERO-SUM GAME WHERE WE RUN OUT OF THE ABILITY TO LOVE.

AND, THE STORY OF THE GOOD SAMARITAN IS OUR POINT OF REFERENCE THAT YOU LOVE THE PERSON WHO IS IN NEED.

IT IS KIND OF MUCH LIKE WHAT MY MOTHER SAID.

SHE WAS ASKED A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO, SHE RAISED MY CHILDREN AND SHE WAS ASKED , DO YOU LOVE ANY OF YOUR CHILDREN MORE THAN THE OTHERS AND SHE SAID, ONLY IF THEY NEED IT.

THE GOOD SAMARITAN STORY IS IN FACT ABOUT A PERSON IN NEED.

IT WASN'T A FAMILY MEMBER.

AND SO LOVE IS SOMETHING THAT HAS TO BE SHOWN, FIRST OF ALL, TO THOSE WHO ARE IN NEED AND IT IS NOT SOMETHING BY WHICH WE CAN EXHAUST, IT IS A VIRTUE THAT IS GIVEN TO US TO LOVE EVERYBODY.

>> YOU WILL RECALL JUST MONTHS AFTER HIS ELECTION BACK IN 2013, HE SHOCKED THE WORLD BY STATING SOMETHING THAT WAS VIEWED AS SO REVOLUTIONARY.

HE SAID, "THE CHURCH MUST WELCOME THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY. "

AND SAID, "IF A PERSON SEEKS GOD AND HAS GOODWILL, WHO AM I TO JUDGE? "

FROM THERE, YOU SAW CRITICISM FROM SOME OF THE CONSERVATIVE SECTIONS OF THE CHURCH .

I'M SORRY, EXCUSE ME FOR A SECOND, FROM SOME OF THE CONSERVATIVE SECTIONS OF THE CHURCH AND THAT WOULD ULTIMATELY LEAD TO CRITICISM FROM THE LEFT AND LIBERALS WHO THOUGHT HE DIDN'T DO ENOUGH.

DO YOU THINK HE MANAGED TO WALK A FINE BALANCE ULTIMATELY, LOOKING BACK AT HIS LEGACY?

>> I DON'T THINK HE WAS NECESSARILY LOOKING TO WALK A BALANCE, HE JUST WANTED TO SPEAK THE GOSPEL TRUTH.

WE HAVE ALWAYS BELIEVED THAT THE LORD DOESN'T EXCLUDE ANYONE AND IT IS NOT SOMETHING FOR US TO JUDGE ANOTHER PERSON.

JESUS, TIME AND AGAIN, TULSA'S NOT TO JUDGE.

I THINK THAT IT IS A MATTER NOT OF TRYING TO BALANCE THINGS BUT OF BEING FAITHFUL TO THE GOSPEL.

>> I WAS LISTENING TO ONE EULOGY AND I'M CURIOUS TO GET YOUR REFLECTION ON THIS INTERPRETATION.

HE REFUSED TO DEFEND DOCTRINE FOR DOCTRINE'S SAKE.

HE WAS OPPOSED TO EUTHANASIA, ABORTION, AND SAME-SEX MARRIAGE BUT HE WANTED TO LEAVE OPEN SPACE FOR UNDERSTANDING AND LEFT OPEN THE DOOR FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE DIVORCED AND REMARRIED TO TAKE COMMUNION IN CHURCH.

IS THAT A FAIR ASSESSMENT?

>> I WOULD SAY THIS.

THE HOLY FATHER ALWAYS STAYED CLOSE TO WHAT THE CHURCH TEACHES.

WHAT HE DID SAY WAS THAT PEOPLE COME AT THE TRUTHS AT DIFFERENT PACES AND GOD'S GRACE WORKS IN THEIR LIVES IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND THAT WE HAVE TO, IN SOME WAY, BE PATIENT WITH THAT BUT ALSO RESPECTFUL OF THE PLACE OF GOD IN THE LIVES OF PEOPLE AND NOT TO SUBSTITUTE FOR GOD.

HE SAID WE HAVE TO FORM CONSCIOUSNESS BUT WE CANNOT DOMINATE THEM.

WE CANNOT REPLACE THEM.

I THINK THAT IS WHERE HE WAS COMING FROM.

>> CAN YOU TALK ABOUT HIS HUMILITY AND THE FACT IS THAT HOW HE LIVED AS A CARDINAL, HOW HE LIVED AS A YOUNG MAN, HE CARRIED THAT WITH HIM INTO THE VATICAN?

HE REFUSED TO LIVE IN THE 12 ROOM VATICAN APARTMENT PUT ASIDE SPECIFICALLY FOR THE POPE AND ULTIMATELY LIVED IN A TWO ROOM HOSTEL, HE DINED WITH EVERYONE ELSE, HE PAID HIS OWN CHECKS AT TIMES .

THAT HUMILITY, WHAT IS THE LEGACY OF THAT THAT HE LEAVES BEHIND?

>> WELL, I THINK HIS HUMILITY WAS TIED TO THE FACT THAT HE WAS A REAL HUMAN BEING.

HE WAS VERY TIED TO HIS RELATIONSHIPS WITH OTHER PEOPLE, NOT BEING HAUGHTY.

AT THE STAFF WHERE HE LIVED, HE REGULARLY DINED WITH THE STAFF, SOMETIMES ONCE A WEEK, BECAUSE HE WANTED TO GET TO KNOW THE PEOPLE THERE.

HE WANTED TO BE A PASTOR TO THEM.

HE DIDN'T LIKE PRETENSE AND HE WAS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO, IN A VERY HUMAN WAY TO LIFT OUT AN AUTHENTIC LIFE.

>> IS SOMEONE VERY FEW PEOPLE CAN SAY YOU KNEW SO WELL AND FOR SO MANY YEARS.

AS YOU SAID, HE WAS HUMAN AND YOU HEAR STORIES ABOUT HIS SENSE OF HUMOR, HIS PASSIONS, HIS INTERESTS.

ARE THERE ANY PERSONAL ANECDOTES THAT YOU CAN SHARE WITH US, SOME REFLECTIONS ON YOUR OWN EXCHANGES?

>> WELL, HE WAS AN INDIVIDUAL WHO ALWAYS PUT PEOPLE AT EASE WITH HIS HUMOR BUT HE WAS ALSO, HE COULD BE VERY SERIOUS BUT HE WOULDN'T TAKE HIMSELF SERIOUSLY.

I THINK THAT THAT IS A TRAIT OF AN INDIVIDUAL WHO , FIRST OF ALL, REALIZED THAT PEOPLE MIGHT NOT AT FIRST TO FEEL COMFORTABLE IN HIS PRESENCE AND HE WANTED TO RELATE TO THEM BUT ALSO HE WANTED TO TAKE UP ISSUES THAT WERE VERY IMPORTANT AND HE WANTED PEOPLE TO SHOOT STRAIGHT WITH HIM.

I THINK TIME AND AGAIN, HE ALWAYS WANTED TO KNOW WHAT WAS GOING ON AND HE LOOKED FOR OTHER WAYS IN WHICH HE COULD FIND OUT INFORMATION.

>> WELL, I KNOW YOU ARE HEADED TO ROME SOON BEFORE HIS FUNERAL AND OBVIOUSLY THE CONCLAVE THAT FOLLOWS.

COLONEL BLASE CUPICH, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR REFLECTIONS, FOR YOUR WORDS, FOR YOUR THOUGHTS.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU AGAIN FOR HAVING ME AND FOR COVERING THIS VERY IMPORTANT STORY.

WE LOST OUR LITTLE GIANT, A GREAT MAN .

BUT, WE SHOULD BE GRATEFUL THAT HE CROSSED OUR PATHS.

>> INDEED.

WELL SPOKEN, CARDINAL, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> NOW, LET'S GET TO THE VATICAN CITY AND TO LEDERMAN.

THEN, YOU HAVE BEEN REPORTING ALL DAY.

GIVE US A SENSE OF WHAT YOU HAVE HEARD FROM THE CROWDS WHO HAVE GATHERED TO CELEBRATE EASTER, WHO HAD JUST HAD A CHANCE TO SEE THE POPE AND NOW ARE REACTING TO NEWS OF HIS PASSING.

>> Reporter: YES, BIANNA, A LOT OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE HERE WERE HERE YESTERDAY WHEN THE POPE APPEARED ON THE BALCONY SAID A FEW WORDS, A STATEMENT BY KING WAS READ OUT TO THE CROWD AND THEN HE WENT AROUND TO ST. PETER'S SQUARE WITHOUT, OF COURSE, THE BULLETPROOF GLASS THAT HAD BEEN THE TRADITION SINCE THE EARLY 1980s AFTER JOHN PAUL II WAS THE SUBJECT OF AN ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT.

THEY SAW HIM YESTERDAY.

TODAY, THIS MORNING AT 7:35 LOCAL TIME, ACCORDING TO THE VATICAN, HE PASSED AWAY.

PEOPLE ARE REALLY SHOCKED.

SHOCKED IN THE SENSE THAT THEY SAW HIM YESTERDAY , TODAY HE IS DEAD.

HE WAS, BETWEEN FEBRUARY AND MARCH, IN THE HOSPITAL FOR 38 DAYS, ACCORDING TO THE DOCTORS WHO WERE TREATING HIM.

HE ALMOST DIED TWICE FROM DOUBLE PNEUMONIA DURING THAT TIME BUT IT WAS THOUGHT TO WEEKS AGO, WHEN I WAS THERE AT THE GEMELLI HOSPITAL AND SAW HIM BRIEFLY COME OUT ONTO THE BALCONY AND DRIVE AWAY IN A FIAT, IT WAS THOUGHT HE WAS ON THE MEND.

THE DOCTORS AT THE TIME HAD TOLD HIM, FOR THE NEXT TWO MONTHS, PLEASE REST.

WHAT WE SAW YESTERDAY WAS PERHAPS HIS MOST ACTIVE PUBLIC DAY, IN ADDITION TO HIS APPEARANCE IN ST. PETER'S SQUARE, HE DID HAVE A BRIEF MEETING BEFORE HAND WITH U. S. VICE PRESIDENT JD VANCE.

I THINK THE PEOPLE ARE SHOCKED.

THERE WAS A HOPE THAT HE WAS , PERHAPS DESPITE HIS ADVANCED AGE, 88 YEARS, AND HIS MEDICAL CONDITION, THAT HE MIGHT ACTUALLY COME BACK BUT SUCH WAS NOT THE CASE.

BIANNA.

>> IT WAS NOT .

BEN WEDEMAN, WE KNOW THE VATICAN SAID HE PASSED AWAY IN HIS APARTMENT.

HE HAD BEEN AILING FOR QUITE A LONG TIME.

HAS THERE BEEN AN OFFICIAL CAUSE OF DEATH RELEASED BY THE VATICAN YET?

>> Reporter: WE UNDERSTAND FROM THE VATICAN PRESS OFFICE THAT THEY ARE HOPING THIS EVENING TO BE ABLE TO ANNOUNCE THE OFFICIAL CAUSE OF DEATH.

IN FACT, IN APPROXIMATELY 45 MINUTES, ACCORDING TO THE VATICAN PRESS OFFICE, THERE WILL BE A CEREMONY IN THE CHAPEL AT THE GUESTHOUSE WHERE POPE FRANCIS WAS A STATEMENT, WHERE THE CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER OF THE VATICAN WILL EXAMINE THE BODY, TRY TO DETERMINE THE CAUSE OF DEATH.

CERTAINLY , HE HAD MANY PROBLEMS.

IN ADDITION TO SUFFERING FROM DOUBLE PNEUMONIA, HE DID HAVE PERSISTENT RESPIRATORY PROBLEMS IN RECENT YEARS, SCIATICA, MOBILITY PROBLEMS.

SEVERAL YEARS AGO, HE HAD ABDOMINAL SURGERY AS WELL.

CERTAINLY, THE FACT THAT MAN AT HIS ADVANCED AGE AND MEDICAL CONDITION , NOT PARTICULARLY SURPRISING THAT HE DID PASS AWAY.

IT IS JUST THE FACT THAT HE WAS JUST IN THE SQUARE BEHIND ME YESTERDAY AND TODAY, HE IS DEAD, IS A SHOCK FOR MANY.

>> INDEED.

JUST THE SYMBOLISM OF HAVING BEEN THERE AND MAKING THE EFFORT TO ADDRESS THE CROWD ON THE HOLIEST OF DAYS, ON THE CHRISTIAN CALENDAR JUST YESTERDAY.

WE KNOW THE POPE WILL LIE IN STATE IN ST. PETER'S BASILICA FOR SEVERAL DAYS.

NOW, CARDINALS WILL BE DECIDING HOW LONG, ANYWHERE BETWEEN 5 TO 7 DAYS, AND WHAT HAPPENS AFTER THAT?

>> Reporter: WELL, THEN THERE WILL BE A TIME OF NINE DAYS OF PRAYER AND SERVICES COMMEMORATING HIS LIFE.

DURING THAT TIME , IF THEY HAVEN'T ARRIVED ALREADY, APPROXIMATELY MORE THAN 250 CARDINALS WHO ARE SUPPOSED TO ATTEND THE FUNERAL AND THEN PARTICIPATE IN THE CONCLAVE.

THEY SHOULD HAVE ARRIVED IN ROME.

ACCORDING TO THE NEW SCHEDULE WORKED OUT FINE POPE FRANCIS, WITHIN 15 TO 20 DAYS OF THE DEATH OF THE POPE, THE CONCLAVE SHOULD BE HELD AND IT SHOULD GO ON NO LONGER THAN 13 DAYS FOR THOSE CARDINALS TO ELECT A POPE SUCCESSOR.

>> YOU WERE THERE IN 2013.

I SAW THE FOOTAGE, WHEN POPE FRANCIS WAS ELECTED AND NAMED THE POPE AND YOU TURNED TO YOUR PRODUCER SENDING WHO?

AND NOW WE LOOK AT THE LASTING IMPACT AND LEGACY HE HAS HAD SERVING AS THE POPE, ON THE CHURCH AND THE WORLD, AND YOU WILL BE THERE FOR US WHEN WE HAVE HIS SUCCESSOR NAMED AS WELL.

BEN WEDEMAN, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

> >> NOW, FROM MY , FROM A WORKING-CLASS NEIGHBORHOOD IN WHEN IS OUR RACE TO THE TOP OF VATICAN CITY, THE JOURNEY OF POPE FRANCIS WAS A REMARKABLE ONE.

WE HAVE THIS DEEPER LOOK.

>> Reporter: A SIMPLE GOOD EVENING FROM THE NEWLY ELECTED CARDINAL FROM ARGENTINA.

THE FIRST PART OF HER FROM THE AMERICAS .

HIS CHOICE OF THE NAME FRANCIS AFTER THE SINK KNOWN FOR HIS POVERTY AND LOVE OF NATURE HAD NEVER BEEN USED BEFORE AND BY A POPE, SET THE TONE FOR A PONTIFICATE MARKED BY ATTENTION TO THE POOR AND A SIMPLE WAY OF LIFE.

HIS HOMEWORK NOLAN TO BE THE HISTORIC APARTMENTS BUT A SIMPLE SET OF ROOMS IN THE GUESTHOUSE ON THE VATICAN GROUNDS.

ELABORATE PEOPLE ROBES AND JEWELRY REMAINED IN THE CLOSET AS FRANCIS ONLY WORE HIS WHITE CATHOLIC, BLACK ORTHOPEDIC SHOES, AND A SIMPLE CROSS.

WHEN HE NEEDED HIS GLASSES FIXED, HE HOPPED IN THE CAR AND WENT HIMSELF TO THE OPTICIAN IN ROME.

A DOWN TO EARTH STYLE LEARNED ON THE STREETS OF IN A SERIES, THE ONE TIME NIGHTCLUB BOUNCER TOOK PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION AND ALWAYS REMAINED A FAN OF ARGENTINA'S SAN LORENZO SOCCER TEAM.

HIS SIMPLE WORDS HAD A WAY OF GETTING TO THE HEART OF ISSUES.

>> Translator: IF A PERSON ACCEPTS THE LORD AND HAS GOODWILL, WHO AM I TO JUDGE?

>> Reporter: IT CONVINCED MANY THAT HE WAS A POPE OPEN TO CHANGE.

HE WAS A CHAMPION OF THE ENVIRONMENT, ISSUING AN ENCYCLICAL, THE HIGHEST PEOPLE TEACHING DOCUMENT, TO WARN OF THE DANGERS OF GLOBAL WARMING AND A THROWAWAY CONSUMER CULTURE IN THE WEST THAT DAMAGES OUR CLIMATE AND LIKELIHOOD OF THE POOR.

>> Translator: THE MISUSE AND DESTRUCTION OF THE ENVIRONMENT ARE ACCOMPANIED BY A RELENTLESS PROCESS OF EXCLUSION, IN EFFECT, A SELFISH AND BOUNDLESS THIRST FOR POWER AND MATERIAL PROSPERITY LEADS TO THE MISUSE OF AVAILABLE NATURAL RESOURCES AND TO THE EXCLUSION OF THE WEEK.

>> Reporter: HE DROVE HOME THE POINT OF TRAVELING TO THE NET ESTATES, HOME OF GAS GUZZLING SUVs, IN A TINY FIAT.

EQUALLY AT HOME WITH THE POOR AND POWERFUL, ON THE LAWN OF THE WHITE HOUSE, MADE A PLEA FOR IMMIGRANTS.

>> AS THE SON OF AN IMMIGRANT FAMILY, I HAPPY TO BE A GUEST IN THIS COUNTRY, WHICH WAS LARGELY BUILT BY SUCH FAMILIES.

>> Reporter: AND AT A TIME MARKED BY A DRAMATIC REFUGEE CRISIS IN EUROPE, FRANCIS CALLED ON GOVERNMENT AND PEOPLE TO NOT CLOSE THEIR EYES OR THEIR BORDERS AND HE WALKED HIS TALK, BRINGING BACK 12 SYRIAN REFUGEES ON HIS PLAN FOLLOWING A TRIP TO THE GREEK ISLAND OF IN THE DIFFICULT TERRAIN OF THE HOLY LAND, POPE FRANCIS PRAYED AT THE WALL DIVIDING THE WEST BANK FROM JERUSALEM AND EMBRACED HIS JEWISH FRIENDS IN FRONT OF THE WAILING WALL.

HE PAID ATTENTION TO THOSE ON THE PERIPHERIES, THE OUTSIDERS EXCLUDED FROM SOCIETY.

>> Translator: THE HUNGRY, THIRSTY, THE STRANGER, THE NAKED, THE SICK, THOSE IN PRISON.

>> Reporter: HE SOUGHT TO SUPPORT THE CHURCH IS ALMOST PERIPHERIES AND FAR FROM ROME.

THE LONGEST TRIP OF HIS PONTIFICATE SAW HIM TRAVELED ACROSS SOUTHEAST ASIA AND THE PACIFIC, HIGHLIGHTING THE IMPORTANCE OF THIS REGION FOR THE FUTURE OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

GOING TO THOSE ON THE MARGINS BUT SOMETHING FREEZES HIMSELF PRACTICED DURING MANY MOMENTS OF HIS PONTIFICATE, EMBRACING THE DISABLED, WASHING THE FEET OF PRISONERS, INSTALLING SHOWER ROOMS FOR THE HOMELESS AROUND THE VATICAN.

>> Translator: ONE OF HIS CHARACTERISTICS, A CHARACTERISTIC OF HIS ENTIRE LIFE WAS HUMANITY.

>> Reporter: A HUMILITY THAT ATTRACTED THE WORLD, WITH POLITICIANS AND THE STARS LINING UP TO MEET HIM AT THE VATICAN.

HE WAS ALSO POPULAR AT TIMES INSIDE OF THE VATICAN AND AMONG POWERFUL CATHOLIC GROUPS IN THE UNITED STATES.

THERE WAS A BACKLASH FROM CONSERVATIVES UPSET ABOUT HIS INSISTENCE THAT CHURCH TEACHING MUST DEVELOP, ALONG WITH HIS BITING CRITICS OF CLERICAL CULTURE.

HIS FINANCIAL REFORMS SEEKING GREATER TRANSPARENCY FACED SIGNIFICANT DIFFICULTIES AND THE SCANDAL OF ABUSE CONTINUING TO BE THE CATHOLIC CHURCHES BIGGEST STRUGGLE.

IN THE CASE OF CHILE, FRANCIS ADMITTED IN A LETTER HE WAS PART OF THE PROBLEM, WHEN EVERY BISHOP IN THE COUNTRY OFFERED TO RESIGN IN THE WAKE OF SEXUAL ABUSE SCANDALS .

ALSO ACCUSED OF BEING A PART OF THE PROBLEM BY HIS EX-AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES, WHO CLAIMED HE TOLD FRANCIS ABOUT SEXUAL ABUSE ALLEGATIONS AGAINST FROM WASHINGTON, D. C. CARDINAL YOUR McCARRICK FIVE YEARS BEFORE, AND FRANCIS ALLOWED HIM TO CONTINUE SERVING.

>> Translator: I WILL NOT SAY ONE WORD ABOUT THIS.

>> Reporter: HE HELD AN UNPRECEDENTED GLOBAL MEETING OF BISHOPS TO ADDRESS THE ISSUE.

THE INVESTIGATION LATER CALLED INTO QUESTION THE CLAIMS MADE BY THE FORMER AMBASSADOR, WHO WAS THEN BARRED FROM RECEIVING COMMUNION AND PUT INTO EXILE BY THE CHURCH AFTER HE REJECTED THE AUTHORITY OF THE POPE AND SOME KEY CATHOLIC TEACHINGS.

NEVERTHELESS, QUESTIONS REMAINED ABOUT HOW FRANCIS HANDLED THE ABUSE CRISIS.

>> THERE IS NO DOUBT THE CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE SCANDALS ARE THE CENTRAL STAIN ON HIS LEGACY.

OVER AND OVER AGAIN, POPE FRANCIS SAID THE RIGHT THINGS, HE MET WITH VICTIMS, HE EXPRESSED HEARTFELT SORROW, HE EXPRESSED RESOLVE TO GET THIS RIGHT.

BUT, MOST CRITICS, MANY VICTIMS, WOULD SAY THAT THAT WASN'T TOUCHED WITH A POLICY FOLLOW-THROUGH.

>> Reporter: WHEN THE CORONAVIRUS PANDEMIC IT IN 2020, THE IMAGE OF THE POPE PLUS IN THE WORLD FROM AN EMPTY ST. PETER'S SQUARE, BECAME A SYMBOL FOR THAT SELECTIVE TIME.

FRANCIS URGED NATIONS TO SHARE VACCINES WITH POORER COUNTRIES AND VACCINATED HUNDREDS OF HOMELESS AND UNDERPRIVILEGED AT THE VATICAN.

FOLLOWING A HISTORIC TRIP TO IRAQ, THE FIRST POPE TO VISIT THE COUNTRY, FRANCIS STOOD ON TOP OF THE RUBBLE IN MOSUL, AND FURTHERED HIS OUTREACH TO THE MUSLIM WORLD BY AN UNPRECEDENTED MEETING WITH TOP MUSLIM CLERIC, THE RECLUSIVE GRAND AYATOLLAH .

FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR IN UKRAINE IN 2022, FRANCIS WAS AN OUTSPOKEN ADVOCATE FOR PEACE.

HE AVOIDED OUTRIGHT CONDEMNATION OF VLADIMIR PUTIN BUT PUBLICLY APPEALED TO THE RUSSIAN PRESIDENT, BEGGING HIM TO STOP, FOR THE LOVE OF HIS PEOPLE, THE POPE SAID.

FRANCIS SPOKE SEVERAL TIMES BY PHONE WITH UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY DURING 2022, ASKING HIM TO BE OPEN TO SERIOUS PEACE PROPOSALS BEFORE THE PAIR MET FACE TO FACE AT THE VATICAN IN MAY OF 2023 AND OCTOBER, 2024.

HE MADE A SIMILAR APPEALS FOR PEACE DURING THE CONFLICT IN THE MIDDLE EAST, SETTING THE ISRAEL HAMAS WAR HAD ASCENDED INTO TERRORISM.

HE INSISTED THE WAR IS ALWAYS 50 FEET AND SAID SELF-DEFENSE IS NOT PROPORTIONAL IS IMMORAL.

HIS MOST IMPORTANT MESSAGE WAS ONE OF THE FRATERNITY, THAT WE ARE ALL BROTHERS AND SISTERS, DESPITE OUR DIFFERENCES.

TAKE CARE OF THE EARTH AND EACH OTHER, HE SAID, AND DON'T FORGET TO PRAY FOR ME.

>> CHRISTOPHER LAMB REPORTING.

LET'S TURN TO THE FIRST AMERICAN JOURNALIST TO INTERVIEW A POPE AND WAS NIGHT BY FRANCIS IN 2021.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, PHILIP.

WE KNOW THAT FRANCIS INHERITED A DEEPLY DIVIDED CHURCH IN 2013 AND WAS FACING A NUMBER OF SCANDALS FROM WITHIN.

YOUR REFLECTIONS ON HOW HE LEFT THE CHURCH TODAY?

>> WELL, THIS CHURCH IS NOW VERY SIMILAR TO AMERICAN SOCIETY IN THE SENSE THAT IT IS POLARIZED.

IT IS POLARIZED BETWEEN CONSERVATIVES AND PROGRESSIVES AND WE ARE CONSTANTLY TOLD BY THE VATICAN, DON'T USE THOSE WORDS.

BUT, IT IS VERY DIFFICULT NOT TO BREAK IT DOWN INTO THAT, INTO THOSE CATEGORIES.

THE CHURCH IS VERY POLARIZED, WHICH IS WHY THE ELECTION OF THE NEXT POPE IS GOING TO BE INCREDIBLY INTERESTING, TO SAY THE LEAST, AS THE CARDINALS DECIDED WHETHER THEY WANT TO, AS I LIKE TO PUT IT, MOVE THE PENDULUM A LITTLE BACK TOWARD THE CENTER OR CONTINUE WITH SOME OF THE POLICIES THAT POPE FRANCIS ENCOURAGED FROM THE BEGINNING OF HIS PONTIFICATE IN 2013 AND THAT WILL BE THE KEY QUESTION THAT FACES THE CARDINALS WHO COME TO ELECT HIM IN THE NEXT FEW DAYS AND DURING THE CONCLAVE THAT FOLLOWS AFTER THE FUNERAL.

>> HE, AS WE NOTED IN OUR PREVIOUS SEGMENT, ENCOURAGED SOME OF THESE, AT THE TIME, MORE RADICAL, MORE PROGRESSIVE POLICIES BUT DIDN'T NECESSARILY ENACT THEM.

FOR EXAMPLE, THE OPENNESS TO CIVIL UNIONS, SAME-SEX COUPLES, HAS MET WITH LGBTQ FAMILIES, BUT SAME-SEX RELATIONSHIPS ARE STILL CONSIDERED "INTRINSICALLY DISORDERED " AND THE VATICAN, JUST A FEW YEARS AGO, ONCE AGAIN REAFFIRMED IT COULDN'T BLESS SAME-SEX UNIONS.

WHY DO YOU THINK HE DIDN'T GO A STEP FURTHER, OTHER THAN THE LEGACY AND THE FACT THAT HE WAS THE FIRST TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT, IF THEY ARE GOOD PEOPLE AND IF THEY ARE LGBTQ MEMBERS WHO ARE MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY, THEY SHOULD BE ACKNOWLEDGED?

>> YES, AS YOU SAID, HE DID COME OUT IN DEFENSE OF LGBTQ MEMBERS AND BUT HE DID NOT CHANGE ANY CHURCH TEACHING ON HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONS, IN OTHER WORDS.

ESSENTIALLY, THE CHURCH TEACHES HOMOSEXUAL ATTRACTION IS NOT A SYMPTOM HOMOSEXUALITY ACTIVITY IS A SIN.

ONE OF THE REASONS HE MIGHT HAVE DECIDED TO HOLD BACK HIS ON THAT ISSUE AND ALSO ON THE ISSUE OF FEMALE PRIESTHOOD, IT WAS INCREDIBLY DIVISIVE IN THE ANGLICAN CHURCH AND IT REALLY DID SPLIT THE ANGLICAN CHURCH AND THIS POPE BUT ALSO BEFORE HIM , JOHN PAUL AND BENEDICT, LOOKED AT WHAT HAPPENED WITH THE ANGLICAN CHURCH AGREEING ON THE ORDINATION OF WOMEN, AGREEING ON LGBTQ ISSUES AND WHAT HAPPENED, IT COMPLETELY DIVIDED THE CHURCH.

NOW, WHEN THE POPE RECENTLY, THE THEOLOGICAL CHIEF, WHEN HE SPOKE ABOUT BLESSING SAME-SEX COUPLES NOT AS A WEDDING BUT AS A SORT OF JUST GIVING THEM A BLESSING, NOT INDIVIDUAL BLESSING OF THEIR ACTIVITY BUT THE LOVE THEY HAVE FOR EACH OTHER, IT CAUSED ENORMOUS PROBLEMS FOR AFRICAN BISHOPS, WHERE, AS YOU KNOW, HOMOSEXUALITY IN AFRICA CAN ALSO LEAD TO THE DEATH PENALTY.

PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED BECAUSE THEY ARE GAY.

AFRICAN BISHOPS WERE THROWN INTO GREAT DIFFICULTY WITH THESE STATEMENTS.

NOW, THAT IS A VERY DIVISIVE ISSUE AND I THINK IT IS NOT JUST PHRASES BUT ALSO BENEDICT AND JOHN PAUL BEFORE HIM SEEING WHAT HAPPENED IN THE ANGLICAN CHURCH, DID NOT WANT THE SAME THING FOR THE KIND OF BREAKUP THAT HAPPENED IN THE ANGLICAN CHURCH.

>> AND ALSO, PERHAPS, THE INCREMENTAL APPROACH WAS A STRATEGIC ONE ON HIS PART.

WHEN TALKING ABOUT HIS SUCCESSORS HE APPOINTED ABOUT 80% OF THE CARDINALS WHO WILL BE MAKING THAT DECISION.

WHAT IS THE LIKELIHOOD ABOUT HIS SUCCESSOR WILL CARRY ON HIS POLICIES, HIS PRIORITIES?

>> I BELIEVE THE SPECIFIC NUMBERS, THERE ARE 135 CARDINAL ELECTORS THAT ARE UNDER THE AGE OF 80 AND SO THEY WILL GO INTO CONCLAVE TO ELECT HIS SUCCESSOR.

OF THOSE, 135, 108 OR 109th WERE ACTUALLY APPOINTED BY FRANCIS.

THE OTHERS WERE APPOINTED, AND A HANDFUL BY BENEDICT AND 5 BY POPE JOHN PAUL.

ONE WOULD THINK THAT THE NEXT POPE WOULD LOGICALLY CONTINUE IN THAT DIRECTION.

THAT IS NOT NECESSARILY THE CASE.

ALSO, SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE OF WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT BEFORE ABOUT THE POLARIZED STATE OF THE CHURCH, THAT POSSIBLY SOMEONE WHO BRINGS THE PENDULUM BACK TOWARD THE MIDDLE MIGHT BE A BETTER CANDIDATE IN THE EYES OF THE CARDINAL ELECTORS.

ANOTHER THING TO KEEP IN MIND, AND THIS IS IMPORTANT, AND DIFFERENCES, THE CARDINALS AROUND THE WORLD HAD FEWER OPPORTUNITIES TO GET TO KNOW EACH OTHER PERSONALLY.

THERE WERE MEETINGS UNDER PREVIOUS POPES, REGULAR MEETINGS WHERE ALL THE CARDINALS WOULD COME TO ROME AND GET TO KNOW EACH OTHER.

THEY DIDN'T TAKE PLACE AS MUCH UNDER FRANCIS AND PURCELL THEY REALLY DON'T KNOW EACH OTHER.

THE GENERAL CONGREGATION, MANY OF THEM DON'T KNOW EACH OTHER.

THE GENERAL CONGREGATION THAT WILL BEGIN THESE MEETINGS BEFORE THE CONCLAVE, THAT WILL BE AN OPPORTUNITY FOR SOME OF THESE CARDINALS TO GET TO KNOW EACH OTHER FOR THE FIRST TIME BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T ACTUALLY VISITED EACH OTHER'S COUNTRIES, WHICH IS WHY ONE OF THE LEADING CANDIDATES IS THE VATICAN SECRETARY OF STATE.

CARDINAL PIETRO PAROLIN HAS TRAVELED THE WORLD, EVERYONE KNOWS HIM, AND EVERYONE KNOWS HE IS A STEADY PAIR OF HANDS AND MAY GET LIBERAL VOTES AS WELL AS CONSERVATIVE VOTES, WHEREAS OTHER CARDINAL CANDIDATES MAY NOT GET THE VOTES FROM CONSERVATIVES AS WELL AS PROGRESSIVES.

>> THEY NEED A TWO THIRDS MAJORITY TO ELECT THE NEXT POPE AS WELL.

AS WE KNOW, THAT COULD TAKE DAYS FOR THEM TO COME TO THAT CONSENSUS.

CAN I GET YOU TO REFLECT, IN THESE FINAL MOMENTS WE HAVE TOGETHER, ON YOUR OWN PERSONAL INTERACTION AND MEMORIES WITH THE POPE, HAVING INTERVIEWED HIM, I BELIEVE TWICE, YES?

>> THAT IS CORRECT.

I HAVE COVERED THREE POPES, JOHN PAUL, BENEDICT, AND FRANCIS, AND I WAS THE CLOSEST TO HIM.

WE JUST KIND OF HIT IT OFF.

ON THE PLANE, I WOULD ASK THEM CERTAIN QUESTIONS AND HE LIKED TO JOKE AND LIKED TO LAUGH.

I HAD DONE SO MANY TRIPS WHERE THE POPE COMES TO THE PRESS, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY.

YOU ARE A KNOWN ENTITY AND WHATEVER.

I WOULD ALWAYS TRY TO SAY SOMETHING FUNNY.

AND HE LIKED TO LAUGH.

THEN, I ASKED HIM FOR THE INTERVIEW OR WHATEVER AND IT TOOK PLACE IN 2018.

NOW, IT WILL SOUND VERY, VERY ODD BUT WE WERE ALONE IN A ROOM FOR TWO HOURS.

THERE WERE NO HANDLERS, NO PRESS PEOPLE, KNOW NOBODY.

IT WAS JUST THE TWO OF US FOR TWO HOURS AND HE WENT OFF THE RECORD WITH STUFF I WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO USE BECAUSE IT WAS OFF THE RECORD.

HE FELT VERY COMFORTABLE WITH ME AND I FELT VERY COMFORTABLE WITH HIM BUT HE DIDN'T GET A FREE RIDE IN MY COVERAGE AND NEITHER DID THE VATICAN IN GENERAL.

THE SECOND TIME, WHEN I ASKED HIM FOR ANOTHER INTERVIEW, I WAS ABLE TO GIVE HIM A MESSAGE TO A TRUSTED SOURCE, HE CALLED ME ON MY CELL PHONE AFTER ABOUT FOUR OR FIVE DAYS AND HE SAID I GOT YOUR NOTE AND HE SAID LET'S DO IT IN JULY.

HE HANDLED THE WHOLE THING BY HIMSELF.

I WAS KIND OF PUT IN A DIFFICULT SITUATION BECAUSE, FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS BETWEEN THE TIME HE SAID YES AND THE TIME HE, THE INTERVIEW TOOK PLACE, HE DIDN'T TELL ANYBODY.

NOT THE ENTIRE COMMUNICATIONS APPARATUS, UNTIL I THEN TOLD A COUPLE PEOPLE THAT I DIDN'T WANT TO FEEL BURNED AND SWORE THEM TO SECRECY BUT THAT IS THE WAY THAT HE OPERATED.

HE WOULD CALL PEOPLE DIRECTLY.

IF HE LIKED YOU, HE REALLY LIKED YOU .

HE WOULD RETURN YOUR CALLS, OR RETURN YOUR MESSAGES, IN MY CASE.

IT WAS QUITE AMAZING.

IT BECAME A VERY PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM.

HE FELT COMFORTABLE WITH ME FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER, PERHAPS BECAUSE I AM AN INTERIM IMMIGRANT TWO.

>> YOU MADE AN IMPRESSION ON HIM AND IT IS WONDERFUL TO HEAR WHEN PEOPLE HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOR, ONE OF THE BEST QUALITIES A PERSON CAN HAVE.

PHILIP, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> PLEASURE.

> >> POPE FRANCIS WAS KNOWN AS A MODERNIZER AND REFORMER.

HE WAS ALSO KNOWN FOR HIS OUTSPOKEN APPROACH ON HUMANITARIAN ISSUES LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE, MIGRATION, WAR, AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

POSTED THIS ABOUT POPE FRANCIS, SAYING, "IN EVERY MEETING, HE SHOWED COMPASSION AND COURAGE.

HE STOOD WITH SURVIVORS, SPOKE FOR THE FOURTH WAS, AND GAVE HOPE WHERE THERE WAS LITTLE.

I WILL ALWAYS CARRY HIS KINDNESS WITH ME. "

> >> IN 2014, TRAIN FOR ASKED THE POPE ABOUT HIS DECISION TO CALL HUMAN TRAFFICKING AND SLAVERY A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.

>> HOLY FATHER, WHO PLAYED A KEY ROLE IN ESTABLISHING THE GLOBAL FREEDOM NETWORK.

YOU ARE THE FIRST PERSON TO CALL MODERN SLAVERY AND HUMAN TRAFFICKING A COLUMN, A CRIME AGAINST INANITY.

AS YOU APPEAL FOR THIS SCOURGE TO BE ERADICATED ONCE AND FOR ALL, TELL US EXACTLY WHAT MOTIVATED YOUR PASSION ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR SCORCH.

>> Translator: ON BEHALF OF ALL OF US AND OUR BELIEFS AND PERSUASIONS, WE DECLARE THAT HUMAN SLAVERY, IN TERMS OF PROSTITUTION, EXPLOITATION, AND ALSO HUMAN TRAFFICKING IS A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.

THE VICTIMS COME FROM ALL WALKS OF LIFE BUT MOST TIMES, THEY ARE THE POOREST AND THE MOST VULNERABLE OF OUR BROTHERS AND SISTERS.

THIS TAKES PLACE IN HIDING, BEHIND CLOSED DOORS, IN PRIVATE HOMES, IN THE STREETS, IN THE CARS, AND FACTORIES, IN THE FIELDS, IN FISHING BOATS, AND IN SO MANY OTHER PLACES.

THIS TAKES PLACE BOTH IN CITIES AND VILLAGES.

IN VILLAGES OF THE RICHEST AND POOREST NATIONS.

THE WORST OF THE SITUATION IS BECOMING WORSE AND WORSE EVERY DAY.

I CALL UPON ALL PEOPLE IN FAITH AND THEIR LEADERS AND THEIR GOVERNMENTS AND COMPANIES, I CALL ALL MEN AND WOMEN TO PROVIDE THEIR STRONG SUPPORT AND JOIN THIS MOVEMENT AGAINST MODERN SLAVERY IN ALL ITS FORMS.

>> NOW, POPE FRANCIS WAS SEEN AS A MORAL AUTHORITY AND HIS 1.

4 BILLION CATHOLIC FLOCK WORLDWIDE.

IN A RECENT ESSAY FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES," RELIGIOUS SCHOLAR DAVID GIBSON WROTE , "THE AGE OF 12 HAS ITS PROFIT, POPE FRANCIS. "

WITH HIS DEATH, WHAT HAPPENS NOW?

DAVID GIBSON JOINS THE PROGRAM FROM NEW YORK.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

GOOD TO SEE YOU ON THIS DAY OF ALL DAYS.

I KNOW YOU SPENT TIME TALKING ABOUT THE LEGACY OF POPE FRANCIS AND THE OUTSIDER, THE ROLE HE SEEMINGLY GLADLY TOOK ON VERY COMFORTABLY, PUTTING THE FIRST POPE FROM THE AMERICAS, THE FIRST POPE TO TAKE ON THE NAME ST. FRANCIS OF ASSISI, THE FIRST POPE TO ADDRESS A JOINT SESSION OF CONGRESS.

SO MANY DIFFERENCES FROM HIS PREDECESSOR, GET LEAVING SUCH A LASTING LEGACY.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE MOST POIGNANT POINTS OF HIS LEGACY, IN YOUR VIEW?

>> I THINK IT GOES IN TWO DIRECTIONS.

ONE IS INSIDE THE CHURCH, WHICH PHILIP WAS TALKING ABOUT SO ELOQUENTLY.

PEOPLE WHO KNEW HIM, JOURNALISTS WHO KNEW HIM WERE USUALLY THE OUTSIDERS THEMSELVES.

AS GENEROUS, INCLUSIVE, OPEN AND WELCOMING AS HE WAS, HE ALSO, HE WAS A VERY TOUGH ON HIS OWN CARDINALS, HIS OWN BISHOPS.

HE WOULD REALLY REMONSTRATE WITH THEM AND CALL THEM OUT SAYING, WE NEED TO DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

HE WAS ELECTED IN LARGE PART TO REFORM THE ROMAN TRIO.

BACK IN 2013, WHEN BENEDICT THE 16th RESIGNED, ALMOST UNDER A CLOUD OF SCANDAL, THE VATICAN HAD ALL THESE FINANCIAL AND SEXUAL SCANDALS THAT WERE HEADLINES IN THE PAPERS, THEY WANTED SOMEONE TO CLEAN UP THE ROMAN CURIA.

THEY ELECTED JORGE MARIO BERGOGLIO, A TOUGH ARGENTINE JUST A WAY TO DO THAT.

HE CAME IN AND SAID WE CAN'T JUST REFORM THE ROMAN CURIA, WE HAVE TO REFORM THE WHOLE CHURCH, WE HAVE TO REFORM OUR WHOLE SELVES.

HE IS A JESUIT, HE WAS THE FIRST JUST TO BECOME ELECTED POPE AS WELL.

THERE WAS THAT ELEMENT BUT THEN ON THE OUTSIDE, CLIMATE CHANGE, INCOME INEQUALITY, PROTECTING DEMOCRACY.

HE WAS A CHAMPION FOR SO MANY IN THE WORLD LOOKING TO AN ALTERNATIVE TO THE KIND OF NATIONAL POPULISM THAT IS SWEEPING THE GLOBE.

>> YOU TOLD CHRISTIANE RECENTLY HE WAS THE ANTITHESIS OF THE NEW TRUMP ERA.

CAN YOU GO INTO MORE DETAIL ABOUT WHY THAT IS YOUR BELIEF?

>> WELL, HE HAS BEEN SO OUTSPOKEN.

HE BELIEVES THAT EVERYBODY NEEDS TO HAVE A ROLE, HAVE A SAY.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THIS IS A BIT OF AN IRONY.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, 50, 80 YEARS AGO IS NOT SEEN AS A BEACON OF ENLIGHTENMENT.

BUT NOW, IT REALLY HAS BEEN SINCE THE 1960s AND THE REFORMED, WELCOMING RELIGIOUS FREEDOM, WELCOMING PEOPLE PROTECTING HUMAN RIGHTS, HUMAN DIGNITY FOR EVERYONE.

THAT HAS BEEN THE MESSAGE OF POPE FRANCIS.

HE HAS ALSO BEEN A GREAT CHAMPION OF POLITICS.

HE LIKES WHAT HE CALLS A BETTER KIND OF POLITICS.

REALLY HORSETRADING.

HE LIKES TO TELL POLITICIANS, IT IS A KIND OF MARTYRDOM TO BE A POLITICIAN.

HE SAID YOU HAVE TO GET YOUR HANDS DIRTY.

THAT IS WHY YOU GO TO CONFESSION AT THE END OF THE DAY AND THAT IS THE KIND OF THING THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE HORSETRADING, WE NEED TO WORK FOR THE COMMON GOOD.

THAT ONE'S HIS MESSAGE, HIS THRUST.

THAT IS OF THE CATHOLIC BELIEF, NOT TRIBALISM, NOT INDIVIDUALISM, NOT LIBERTARIANISM, WORKING FOR THE COMMON GOOD.

>> HE WAS VERY OUTSPOKEN ABOUT A NEED TO END THE ONGOING WARS THAT HAVE BEEN WRITTEN, WHETHER THAT BE IN GAZA, UKRAINE, SUDAN.

SADLY, HE DID NOT LIVE TO SEE THE DAY WHEN ANY OF THESE MAJOR CONFLICTS WOULD COME TO AN END.

HE WAS ALSO CRITICIZED BY SOME WHO THOUGHT THAT HE DIDN'T CONDEMN RUSSIANS AGGRESSION AND ENVISION STRONGLY ENOUGH FOR VLADIMIR PUTIN STRONGLY ENOUGH.

WE KNOW THAT HE MET WITH FAMILIES OF HOSTAGES FROM ISRAEL ON OCTOBER 7th AND ALSO FROM FAMILIES OF CIVILIANS WHO HAD BEEN KILLED IN THE WAR IN GAZA.

TALK ABOUT HIS LEGACY AS ATTEMPTING TO MAKE PEACE IN SO MANY WARS.

>> IT WAS A COMPLICATED LEGACY, AS YOU SAY.

WE ARE IN A ZERO-SUM WORLD, WHERE SOMEONE HAS TO WIN AND SOMEONE HAS TO LOSE.

THERE CAN BE NO COHABITATION, NO KIND OF GETTING ALONG.

THAT IS WHAT HE WAS AFTER.

HE WANTED PEOPLE TO MAKE PEACE AMONG THEMSELVES.

HE WANTED, HE DIDN'T HE SAID HE WOULD GO DIALOGUE WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN AT ANY TIME.

HE SAW BOTH SIDES OF A CONFLICT.

HE WANTED PEACE, HE WANTED AN END TO THE SUFFERING, HE WANTED TO PUT AN END TO WAR.

MOST PEOPLE WANT TO SEE ONE SIDE WIN AND THE OTHER SIDE LEAVES AND HIS MESSAGE, WHICH IS CALLING ON BOTH SIDES TO COMPROMISE, WAS NOT TERRIBLY WELCOME.

IT IS A DIFFERENT WORLD THAN IT WAS WHEN I FIRST OVER TO THE VATICAN IN THE 1980s.

I WAS WORKING WITH VATICAN RADIO, POPE JOHN PAUL II WAS POPE.

REMEMBER THOSE DAYS?

WE HAD AN EAST AND THE WEST.

WE HAD THE BERLIN WALL, THE COLD WAR.

POPE JOHN PAUL HELPED END OF THE COLD WAR, HELPED BRING DOWN THE BERLIN WALL.

NOW WE ARE IN A WHOLE DIFFERENT WORLD OF TRIBAL CONFLICTS, CONFLICTS WITHIN NATIONS AND AMONG NATIONS.

IT IS MUCH MORE COMPLEX.

AND, IN A WAY, POPE FRANCIS WAS A PROPHET FOR THAT WORLD.

HE TALKED ABOUT HOW WE HAVE TO BE ARTISANS, PERSONAL ARTISANS FOR PEACE.

WE HAVE TO MAKE PEACE WITH OUR BROTHER AND SISTER.

IT IS NOT ABOUT GEOPOLITICS, EAST VERSUS WEST, ANYMORE.

IT IS ABOUT INTERNAL CONFLICT.

THAT GETS TO A CHANGE OF HEART.

>> NOW THE QUESTION WILL BE, CAN HIS SUCCESSOR, WILL HIS SUCCESSOR CHOOSE TO CARRY ON HIS LEGACY?

THAT IS SOMETHING THAT WE WILL SEE IN THE WEEKS AND MONTHS AND YEARS TO COME.

DAVID GIBSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> SO SIGNIFICANT WAS POPE FRANCIS'S DESIRE TO EXTEND AN ARM TO THE WORLD BUT NOT LONG AFTER HE BECAME POPE, THE VATICAN INVITED AWARD-WINNING FILMMAKER WIM WENDERS TO MAKE A DOCUMENT ABOUT HIM.

FOR FILMS LIKE " PARIS, TEXAS," AND "WINGS OF DESIRE," WIM WENDERS WAS GIVEN FOUR AFTERNOONS OF UNPRECEDENTED ACCESS TO THE POPE. "

>> IN A DIVIDED WORLD -- >> ONE LEADER HAS A MISSION.

>> TO BRING US TOGETHER.

>> JUST AFTER ITS PREMIERE IN 2018, WIM WENDERS JOINED CHRISTIANE TO SPEAK ABOUT CREATING HIS PORTRAIT OF THE POPE .

>> THIS FILM YOU'VE DONE HAS GOTTEN GREAT REVIEWS IN CANNES, WHERE YOU DEBUTED IT.

THE REAL QUESTION IS, HOW DO YOU GET SUCH ACCESS TO A POPE?

WE CAN'T, FOR LOVE NOR MONEY .

>> YES, I WONDER MYSELF HOW THAT COULD POSSIBLY HAVE HAPPENED.

IT WAS NOT IN MY LIFE'S PLAN.

ONE DAY, I GOT A LETTER FROM THE VATICAN, WOULD YOU BE INCLINED TO TALK WITH US ABOUT A FILM INVOLVING THE POPE?

THAT WAS AMAZING, ALMOST TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE.

I TRULY ADMIRE HIS WORK AND I THINK HE'S ONE OF THE GREAT LEADERS OF OUR WORLD TODAY.

>> WHAT, SPECIFICALLY ABOUT HIM, DO YOU LOVE THE MOST?

>> YOU SEE, FOR ONCE IN MY LIFE, IT PAID OFF BECAUSE THEY INTRODUCED HIM BEFORE WE SAW HIM AND ENLIGHTEN, SAID HE HAD CHOSEN THE NAME OF FRANCISCUS AND I WAS FLABBERGASTED.

FOR ME, ST. FRANCIS WAS A HERO OF HUMANITY AND THE ONLY THING THAT I COULD, SO TO SPEAK, PUT A NAME ON OR A FACE ON BECAUSE HE STOOD FOR A FEW THINGS THAT WERE AMAZING.

HE STOOD FOR A RADICAL SOLIDARITY AND EDIFICATION WITH THE OUTCAST AND THE POOR.

HE STOOD FOR A COMPLETELY NEW RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MAN AND NATURE AND I FIGURED THAT THAT ONCE THE MOST NECESSARY THING TODAY.

ST. FRANCIS AND THE NAME OF FRANCIS, HE WOULD BE THE FIRST ECOLOGIST TODAY AND ST. FRANCIS STANDS FOR A NEW EFFORT OF PEACE BETWEEN THE RELIGIONS.

>> LET'S PICK UP ON THAT.

THIS POPE DISTANCED HIMSELF ON THAT VERY ENVIRONMENTAL LEVEL, TO TALK ABOUT, IN HIS ENCYCLICAL, WHICH WAS A TREMENDOUS DOCUMENT AND HE HAS ALSO SPOKEN OVER AND OVER AGAIN ABOUT REFUGEES, ABOUT TO THE POOR, ABOUT ALL THE PROPER VALUES THAT HE THINKS WE SHOULD HOLD.

HERE IS A LITTLE CLIP OF AN INTERVIEW THAT YOU DID WITH HIM.

WE WILL PLAY IT AND THEN TALK ABOUT IT ON THE OTHER SIDE.

>> I CAN EVEN SEE YOU MIMING HIS WORDS, YOU ARE SO FAMILIAR WITH THEM, AS YOU WERE LISTENING.

>> I KNOW EVERY WORD BY HEART.

>> WHAT WAS THE MOST SURPRISING THING THAT YOU HEARD FROM HIM?

>> THERE ARE MANY SURPRISING THINGS BECAUSE HE DIDN'T HESITATE TO ANSWER ANY QUESTION, HE DIDN'T EXCLUDE ANY QUESTION.

OTHER ANSWERS WERE SPONTANEOUS AND IMMEDIATE, SOME REALLY AT LENGTH AND SORROW.

AND COME HE GOT VERY UPSET SOMETIMES.

MY QUESTION ABOUT OPHELIA, HE GOT REALLY ANGRY AND I REALIZED IF ONLY THE COURT, HE WOULD DO SO MUCH MORE RIGHT NOW, RIGHT AWAY.

AND, YOU FEEL IT IN THE CONVERSATION.

THERE WAS A COMPLETELY FEARLESS MAN IN FRONT OF ME.

AND, THAT IS VERY RARE TO SEE THAT.

>> I AM FASCINATED AGAIN BECAUSE YOU SAID HE WOULD WANT TO DO MUCH MORE, IF HE COULD BUT HE IS THE POPE.

HE IS GOD'S REPRESENTATIVE ON EARTH .

AND YET, HE CLAIMS THAT HE CAN'T GO AS FAR AS HE WOULD LIKE TO, AND AS THE WORLD DEMANDS, IN RESPONSE TO THIS PEDOPHILIA SCANDAL, WHICH IS STILL ROCKING THE CHURCH FOR WHICH IS STILL DRIVING CATHOLICS AWAY FROM THE CHURCH.

I AM REMINDED OF THE FACT THAT HE SAYS ON THE ONE HAND, I WANT A ZERO TOLERANCE AND ON THE OTHER HAND, HE GETS ANGRY AT JOURNALISTS OR AT PEOPLE WHO RAISE CONTROVERSIAL ISSUES.

CAN YOU TRY TO SQUARE THAT CIRCLE, EXPLAIN THAT CONFLICT AND WHY HE CAN'T RESOLVE IT?

>> HE CANNOT DO EVERYTHING ON HIS OWN, HE HAS TO MOVE A HUGE MACHINERY AND HE HAS TO MOVE AN INSTITUTION THAT IS A VERY RIGID AND THAT IS 2000 YEARS OLD.

I THINK IF IT WAS UP TO HIM TO HIS ZERO TOLERANCE WOULD BE ACROSS THE BOARD.

STILL, HE HAS TO MOVE A BIG INSTITUTION AND I THINK THAT IS FRUSTRATING FOR HIM.

SOMETIMES, YOU FEEL THAT ANGER THAT HE WOULD LIKE TO MOVE THINGS FASTER AND MORE RADICAL.

>> THE THING IS, AGAIN, WE ARE IN A MOMENT NOW.

THE WHOLE WORLD, YOU KNOW, IS REACTING.

PEOPLE WITH MUCH LESS POWER ARE REACTING VERY DEFINITIVELY TO EMPLOYEES, LET'S SAY, WHO ARE VIOLATING THESE FUNDAMENTAL HUMAN RIGHTS AND FUNDAMENTAL LEGAL RIGHTS.

SO, AGAIN, DO YOU THINK THAT HE FEELS DISEMPOWERED?

IS HIS BRAND OF CATHOLICISM, IS HIS BRAND OF RELIGIOUS POLITICS A MINORITY IN THE VATICAN?

DOES HE FEEL OVERTHROWN BY THE VERY CONSERVATIVES?

>> I DON'T THINK HE IS OVERTHROWN BUT HE DOES HAVE A LOT OF RESISTANCE AND WE ALL KNOW ABOUT IT.

AND, I JUST DIDN'T WANT TO MAKE THAT THE CENTRAL ISSUE OF THE FILM.

MY FILM WAS GOING TO BE ABOUT HIS CONCERNS AND ABOUT THE SOLUTIONS THAT HE SUGGESTS AND HIS STATES.

SOMEBODY ELSE MUST MAKE THIS FILM ABOUT THE CONFLICT WITH THE ULTRACONSERVATIVES IN THE CHURCH.

THAT IS NOT MY FILM.

MY MOVIES ARE SORT OF MORE MADE BECAUSE I REALLY LOVE SOMETHING AND I WANT TO SHARE WHAT I LIKE WITH AN AUDIENCE AND I LOVE THE COURAGE OF THIS MAN AND I LOVE HOW OPEN HE IS AND HOW HE LIVES WHAT HE PREACHES.

HE HAS TO MOVE AN INSTITUTION THAT HASN'T BEEN ROCKED AND MOVED SO MUCH IN A LONG, LONG TIME.

HE'S NOT THE YOUNGEST.

I HAVE NOTHING BUT RESPECT FOR HIS EFFORTS AND I ALSO SOMETIMES SENSE THE FRUSTRATION THAT HE COULDN'T GO FURTHER.

>> THAT IS GOOD FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

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THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING.

JOIN US AGAIN NEXT TIME.