- Just ahead on "American Black Journal," our Black Church in Detroit series looks at women in ministry.

We'll talk about an initiative that supports women who lead, preach, teach, or serve in the church.

Three women leaders join me to discuss the challenges, the rewards, and the importance of connecting with other women for spiritual growth and personal development.

You don't wanna miss today's show, "American Black Journal" starts now.

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Thank you.

(upbeat music) - Welcome to "American Black Journal."

I'm your host, Stephen Henderson.

Today, we are continuing our series on "The Black Church in Detroit," which is produced in partnership with the Ecumenical Theological Seminary and the Charles H. Wright Museum of African American History.

March is Women's History Month, and we're taking a look at women in ministry, an organization called The Woman Difference Collaborative brings together women ministers and church leaders to connect and uplift each other.

The group has held worship services and other gatherings to support black women in faith-based leadership roles.

Joining me now is the founder of the initiative, Reverend Dr.

Jessica Ingram, along with two members, Monica Anthony, who is the first lady of Fellowship Chapel here in Detroit, and Reverend Dr.

Jacqueline Nelson, who is senior pastor at Davidson Missionary Baptist Church.

Welcome all of you to "American Black Journal."

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- So I'm outnumbered here.

(participants laughing) But we'll get through.

Reverend Ingram, let's start with you.

Talk about the idea to create this group and, I guess, what need you saw that this fulfills.

- Well, actually, my husband and I retired from active ministry in the African Methodist Episcopal Church in 2021 and decided to return to Detroit.

We have served here for 13 years at Oak Grove AME Church, and during my time there, I gave a lot of women's events, women's convocations, et cetera.

I met a number of women in the City of Detroit, both in the faith-based community and politics and et cetera.

So when I returned home, I decided that I wanted to do something to still continue to work with women.

And so really, God just placed in my spirit to call some women who I had relationship with, and to gather them for a time of just sharing with each other.

And we started with having a luncheon at one of the restaurants here.

About 75 women came together.

And there's just something special about women when we gather to have conversations.

And then we had a worship service in April.

I can't remember the year.

But all of this developed without me really knowing how it would pan out.

And so over a couple of years, different women began to become a part of the group.

It's by invitation.

And all of these are women that I have a relationship with, and they are senior pastors, and founding pastors, and first ladies, and evangelists, and just some great, great women that I have been blessed to know and do some unique things with.

- Yeah, so talk a little more about the pressures or the challenges, I guess, that women in roles like yours feel in the church, that kind of drives this fellowship that you find with other women.

- Well, I have found in my time of serving in the church, I only served as, I served as executive pastor with my husband, and then for a short period of time, I was the interim pastor at Oak Grove.

After that, once my husband was elected a bishop, I became what is called Episcopal Supervisor in the AME Church.

And in that particular role, I felt a lot of pressure, pressure to fit in, pressure to live up to the expectation of other people, the pressure of not being invited into certain rooms because of my being female, about being married to a preacher.

And most of the women that I have relationship with, are women in ministry, and so I have witnessed over these 40 years what we have to go through just to live out the calling that is upon our lives.

And even in this 21st century, it's still there.

- You feel like it's still- - Oh, yeah.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- I mean, Monica, it sounds like she's describing a church that my parents might have grown up in, but I think a lot of people might be surprised to hear that that's still the way it is.

And maybe I'm saying that because I'm a man and I don't see it from that perspective.

- I guess as a woman- - You're like- - We see it everywhere.

- Yeah.

- From elections to especially in the church.

And I was just talking with some women, I teach Bible study at the church, and we're doing Ruth and Esther, only two books canonized in the Bible that have the names, necessarily weren't written by women though, but have the names of women and you know- - And they're stories about- - Exactly, exactly.

- Important ones of faith.

- And so, it's just amazing how that patriarchalness has put those ceilings, those glass ceilings in place, and I have a particular fondness for women in ministry because I know that even though it's not godly or Christianly, Christ was not like that.

- Right.

- And one of the things that Reverend Ingram did do was to institute the seven women at the cross, which I think is over 30 years now that I've been able to attend.

It's a little early for me, but it is a fantastic event and that we were there.

We were the first ones there and we were there all along in the beginning, you know, and so I'm always championing women.

That is one of my passions.

So to be a part of this group is just it is like a hug from Jesus because they are phenomenal.

It is a sisterhood, it is friendship, I'm probably one of the more recent of the almost, what, over two dozen of us, and probably one of the younger- - She made me invite her.

(laughs) - I did.

I came.

(participants chattering) - I want to be part of this.

- I'ma tell you what happened.

We were given, when Kamala Harris became the person that was running for president, I said to the women, "Do you all think that we can pull something together?"

'Cause we had what, maybe three weeks, four weeks at the most.

And they all said yes.

So at that time, it was about 20 women in the group, and we did this social media post with all of their pictures, and this one called me, she said, "How dare you have all of those women?"

- And I wasn't there.

(laughs) - And it's funny because the further backstory is I had the same concept, and when I shared it with my husband, he said, "Well, they're already doing that."

I said, "Who was they?"

And he said, we said, call Virgie, the infamous Virgie Rollins with the Democratic Party.

And she said, Reverend Jessica has a group and they're doing it and da da da.

And so we had- - You were like- - We had a friendship already and a relationship and I said, "Uh-uh, I'm mad at you."

That's why I called her up.

I said, "I'm mad at you.

I am mad at you."

And so I've been there since then and it's been tremendous.

A lot of the women have such presence in Metro Detroit and some of them I'm just getting to know.

- Yeah.

- And so, and I'm okay with that, you know, I even test myself to, okay, the names and the churches, you know, but there's no judgment, it's a safe space, it's a warm space, it's fun, it's antithetical to all the things that they say about women and when women are together, and what we bring, it's none of that.

- None of that.

- We are queens who can straighten each other's crowns, and see each other and value each other and love on each other, so.

- We're secure in who we are.

- Exactly.

- And that matters.

- And they some bad ones and some baddies up in there, so you gotta be secure.

- Reverend Nelson, talk about how important this fellowship is, again, to someone in your role, and what that looks like from your role, given the things that haven't changed, I guess, in the church.

- I'm a basically new pastor.

I just, as a pastor for one year, but I've been in ministry 34 years.

And so when I first was licensed in ministry, there weren't a lot of role model.

- Right.

- Women, but Reverend Jessica took me under her wing, and unbeknownst to her, what she was doing with the conferences, major conferences, and she invited me to be a part of it.

But she didn't know I was a new minister.

(laughs) I mean, we talking thousands here.

- Yeah.

Yeah.

- We talking Cobo Hall.

- Yeah.

- And so she invited me to be a part of it, and so I'm sitting in the background shaking like a leaf, but it was my introduction into a woman's circle of preachers.

There were a few of us in the city, but to be with that particular, at that particular place was major for me being so young in ministry.

And so when she left, I was not happy.

I was not happy at all.

- Lost your mentor.

- Yeah.

And so she was like, "Where are you going?"

To Africa.

So (laughs), but her coming back, and I remember her calling me and talking about doing the women's difference and, you know, we talked about, can you do it?

Can you do it?

Absolutely.

Absolutely, this can be done.

- Yeah.

- And you get the support from it.

And so we reconnected and my not knowing because I wasn't pastor, I wasn't candidating for a church or anything, but I just think it was godly ordained that she came back around into my life at that moment.

- When you started to- - When I started and she was praying for me through that.

And so then to be a part of the women's difference, she's always been able to see something in you that you might not necessarily have seen in yourself, and to build that in you as a woman in ministry, that is critical for women in ministry.

You need that person that journeys with you.

There are others, but when you think about 30 years ago, over 30 years ago, you know, I was just, my pastor was very supportive, Pastor EL Branch was very supportive of me.

And my church is very supportive, but to be out there- - It's different.

- Preaching.

- Yeah.

- But because of her, I was known a little bit more, so- - Yeah.

I'm really curious about that first year for you, and how that has gone, you know, the first year would be overwhelming for anybody.

- Right.

- Oh my God.

Yeah.

- But I'm also curious about, you know, the gender dynamics that still attend that space and how that has sort of visited with you.

- Well, I think because 30 years ago, it was so heavily not accepted in the Baptist church, so my feet got wet early in that.

But as a pastor, right now, you still get those dynamics.

There are those that still don't believe in women pastors.

- Oh yeah.

- Do you have people like that in your congregation?

- Not in my congregation.

I think because I serve them as interim pastor first.

- So they're used to it.

- Well, their pastor, Pastor Yarber passed.

- Okay.

- And so when I went to the church, they were still in mourning over Pastor Yarber.

But a part of my gift set is pastor care.

And so I didn't go to be their pastor.

I went to care for them.

- Yeah.

- Until God sent them their next pastor.

- Yeah.

- Not knowing that it was myself.

- It would be you.

(laughs) - I was, so, and it was, and God has always done very, things very different.

I never filled out a resume other than when I was interim, I never, there was never a person that was up against the church with me or anything like that.

God just orchestrated it so that He sent me there, God sent me as interim and He married us as pastoring people together.

So I went and never left.

- That's wild.

- And may I just insert when you talk about God and the timing of God, it was such a rich blessing that when she was installed as the pastor, that there were a number of us who were a part of the Woman Difference and Collaborative- - Absolutely.

- Who were there and you asked me to give the occasion.

- Oh, wow.

- But this is the very church that years ago would not allow me to come and preach.

- [Monica] Wow.

- Oh, they wouldn't- - [Monica] Full circle.

- That's right, because I was a woman.

- Wow.

- And here- - I mean, just flat out said you cannot do that.

- Yeah, I was denied the opportunity to preach and here it is, I don't know how many years later.

- Yeah.

- Then you're in Saul as a pastor and here, there I was given the occasion.

- Yeah, given that.

- And a lot of people that you know that are friends and family, and they just flat out say, "I just don't believe women should be in the pulpit."

- Yeah.

- I mean, women say it.

That's what blows my mind.

- [Jacqueline] Yeah.

- You hear that from other people.

- Oh yeah.

Especially older.

- Yeah.

- It seems to be a little more generational.

- Yeah.

- But I think it is cross denominational.

I mean, we know Baptist is, you know, there's some are like, no, you can be an evangelist, you cannot pastor- - Yeah.

- You cannot lead in certain denominations.

Reverend Anthony's pretty good.

- Yeah.

- In that regard.

- I was gonna say- - We have a- - In your church community, I mean, there are women doing just about everything that I can think of.

But I'm also curious, I guess, about for you as the first lady of that community, of that congregation, how does that play out for you?

Where do you see those kind of- - It's interesting because I've been the first lady for going on 21 years now, and I've watched the relationship grow and evolve and- - The relationship between you and the- - And the congregants, yes, and I'm substantially younger than my husband so it was a lot- - He's really, he's so old.

(participants laughing) - He is not old.

I mean, he's not old.

- I just said that because I know you watch- (laughs) - No, but, and so it's grown and it's a good thing because relationships should be organic, it shouldn't be forced, you know, just like your relationship with Christ, He said, I'm at the door knocking, you don't kick it in, He don't open it where, you have to invite Him in.

And so we have grown in a very natural way and there's an affinity there.

I went from being the little light skinned girl in the choir, you know, which is really nice is there's autonomy and nobody knows you too, just scrutinizing being in a fishbowl.

I never forget when we built the new church and they said, and we were the first couple to be married in the church and, you know, they, you know, church life, "You wanna sit right here, first lady, down front?"

I said, "Absolutely not."

Because that means I gotta walk all the way past those people and they already are looking at you when you come in.

And plus, you know, as servants in the church, which is how I see my role, you're moving, you're called on a lot.

So to be getting up and moving during service, I didn't want that.

So I got, have a seat now, don't get me wrong, and I will make you move.

(laughs) - If someone's in your seat.

- And they will sit there, clutch the pearls, right?

No, but to go back to the seriousness of women in ministry, I'm glad that we are continuously opening up the doors of the mindset and the changes because we have value.

You just heard this full circle moment.

- [Stephen] Yeah.

- And I'm sitting here taking it in and listening, and knowing, don't look at me because you'll make me cry.

Reverend Jessica and like how just having like an epiphany of like, wow, God has set you in a place to nurture and to grow.

I mean, she can preach.

She stands on her own as a preaching, you ever seen her preach, oh my little bitty thing, but man, powerful.

- Yeah.

- And, but this role that you're serving in now is just very- - It's critical.

- It is.

- I can remember at my church, in my home church at Third New Hope, I was the first woman Pastor Branch licensed in ministry and so from there, there are 30, 40 women now that have come under his, that have come under him as a pastor of that church.

I mean, we took a picture before he was, before he retired and he allowed me to preach one of the services before he retired.

I mean, I was just, even though I've preached there, but at that moment- - Yeah.

- At that junction, when he was getting ready to leave the ministry and to represent the women in ministry there to be, because there were other, a lot of other preachers there and he asked me, allowed me to do that.

That was major for me, but as we've been saying, but it also allowed me, when there were churches in the city that were ready to open up to women in ministry, a lot of them would call me to come and preach.

- I see.

- So I've been the first woman to preach at a number of churches here in the city.

- As they transition.

- As they transitioned, I've been- - That's awesome.

- I've been in quite a few churches here, you know, and have pastor, matter of fact, one of the pastors was telling me just yesterday when he became the pastor of his church, the first woman to preach there was myself and he says, and I remember it wasn't Women's Day.

(participants laughing) - Oh, right.

(participants chattering) - He said I wanted you to come and to preach.

- Yeah.

- And so it's just- - Not because you're a woman.

Or not because it's Women's Day, but because you're a good pastor, you're a good minister.

- Steve, can I just say, it dawned on me while I was writing in my journal this morning that it was 42 years ago this month that I officially said yes to preaching, before that, I was Jacqueline.

But it's been 42 years and in those years, I have seen progress because certainly as Dr.

Nelson stated when she started out the, how few women there were now say in the AME church, when you go into ministry, you have to go through what is called the Board of Examiners and I would say for the past 10 years or so, probably 90% of those persons who go before the Board of Examiners are women.

- Are women, really?

- When you go look at seminaries now, a large percentage of those that are enrolled in seminary are women.

Again, in AME church, we have what are called annual conferences and we're a part of the Michigan Annual Conference.

A number of the pastors are females now.

- Yeah.

- So there's progress.

- Yeah, yeah.

- That has been made, but on the other hand, let's say in the history of the African Methodist, fiscal church, which is 200 and what, 16 years old, we've had five women who are elected as bishops in the 200-year history.

And even as they talk about, when they start talking about who's gonna be elected, very seldom do they include a woman.

- A woman.

Yeah.

- And- - So there's still barriers we have to- - That's interesting.

- Smash through.

- Davidson, where I pastor the year that I was elected as pastor was their 100th year as a church and so- - So it took 100 years.

- It was 100 years old.

- Yeah.

Wow.

- And they never had a woman.

- Yeah.

- Wow.

- And so the Sunday after they celebrated their 100th year, the following Sunday is when I took the pool kid as the interim.

- It took one year.

- And I know- - One, it took us 100 years.

- Others, Reverend Tisha Dixon in Bridgehampton, New York, 100-year old ministry, she's the first female pastor.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- So we're moving in the right direction.

- We're moving.

- Yeah.

- And so what, we were, I was in a conversation yesterday when Dr.

Branch left, we have a school there, he has a school, Heritage Center for Religious Studies.

And so he also made me president of that school.

- [Monica] Oh, wow.

- So there's a place now- - [Stephen] That you can- - That I could help nurture.

- [Stephen] Yeah.

Women.

- Women and men as well.

- [Stephen] Right.

- The first graduate is a pastor here in the city, Pastor David Jefferson.

- Oh, really?

- Who is now Dr.

David Jefferson.

- Okay.

- And so there are many students that have gone through there.

- I would love to continue this conversation all day, but of course we are out of time.

- What?

- Oh, man.

- Yes.

- We're just getting started.

- Well, I know, you know, this happens every time I have preachers on the show, we run up against the time barrier, but congratulations on the work.

And thank you for welcoming me into the conversation.

- Thank you.

- Thank you for having me for having us.

- Thanks for being on American Black Journal.

- Thank you.

- Thank you.

- That's gonna do it for us this week.

You can find out more about our guests at americanblackjournal.org, and you can connect with us anytime on social media.

Take care and we'll see you next time.

(upbeat music) - [Announcer] Across our Masco family of companies, our goal is to deliver better living possibilities and make positive changes in the neighborhoods where we live, work, and do business.

Masco, a Michigan company since 1929.

Support also provided by the Cynthia and Edsel Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit PBS.

- [Announcer] The DTE Foundation is a proud sponsor of Detroit PBS.

Through our giving, we are committed to meeting the needs of the communities we serve statewide to help ensure a bright and thriving future for all.

Learn more at DTEFoundation.com.

- [Announcer] Also brought to you by Nissan Foundation and viewers like you.

Thank you.

(bright music)