>>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO." HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP HAS LAID THE FOUNDATIONS FOR A NEGOTIATED APPROACH TO SOME KIND OF NUCLEAR CEASE-FIRE WITH IRAN.

>> WHAT IS PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S IRAN PLAN?

I DISCUSS OPPORTUNITIES AND DANGERS AHEAD WITH ELLIOTT ABRAMS, SPECIAL -- DURING IRAN'S FIRST TERM.

>> THEN.

>> "I'M STILL HERE."

THE OSCAR-NOMINATED FILM TELLING A FAMILY THAT WAS RIPPED APART.

ACTOR FERNANDA TORRES AND DIRECTOR WALTER SALLES JOINS ME.

>> IT IS DIFFICULT FOR SOMEONE WITH KNOWLEDGE AND BAD EXPERIENCE TO FIND THAT IS CONSISTENTLY HEALTHY.

>> WHY IS THE AMERICAN DIET SO DEADLY?

POSITION AND WRITER TELLS US WHAT HE THINKS.

>>> "AMANPOUR & CO.," IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON ENDOWMENT, CANDACE KING WE ARE, THE SYLVIA A AND SIMON B PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAILA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, MARK J LESHER.

THE DEVASTATING NO FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G PETERSON AND JOE GUNS FUND.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITY.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY KATZ, BETH ROGERS, AND CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> THANK YOU TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.

I AM CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

THIS WEEK PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP'S SHAKEUP, TESTING THE LIMITS OF AND WORLD ORDER CAME INTO SHARP FOCUS.

HE STUNNED ALLIES SAYING HE WOULD MEET PRESIDENT PUTIN SOON IN SAUDI ARABIA TO NEGOTIATE AN END TO THE UKRAINE WAR.

HE DOUBLED DOWN HIS PLANS TO DISPLACE PALESTINIANS FROM GAZA.

HE HAS READ EUROPE THE RIOT ACT ABOUT TAKING THE LEAD IN DEFENDING THEMSELVES IN UKRAINE.

WHILE ALSO SLAPPING MASSIVE TARIFFS ON ALLIES.

AND RAPIDLY DISMANTLED AMERICA'S AGENCY FOR DELIVERING CRUCIAL HUMANITARIAN AID.

BUT LESS CLEAR IS HIS APPROACH TOWARDS IRAN.

LAST WEEK HE SIGNED A DIRECTIVE FOR STORING MAXIMUM PRESSURE ON THE COUNTRY.

THE VERY SAME WAY HE DESCRIBED HIS FIRST TERM IRAN POLICY AFTER WITHDRAWING THE U.S. FROM THE NUCLEAR AGREEMENT.

KNOWN AS THE JC PO A.

MEANT TO CURVE THE NUCLEAR AMBITION AND OBAMA'S LANDMARK NEGOTIATION.

NOW PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP IS SIGNALING HE IS OPEN TO REACHING A NEW DEAL WITH TEHRAN.

I ASKED TWO FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIALS WHO HAVE SERVED DEMOCRAT AND REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT BACK ON THESE ISSUES.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING ME FROM WASHINGTON.

SO, LET'S TALK ABOUT IRAN.

A HUGE AMOUNT OF EXECUTIVE ORDERS AND OTHER THINGS COMING FROM THE WHITE HOUSE.

WE DISCUSSED A LOT OF THEM IN THE FIRST WEEKS.

IRAN SEEMS TO BE PROVIDING A BIT OF AN UNUSUAL DILEMMA FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP.

LET ME ASK YOU BOTH TO ANALYZE WHAT HE HAS BEEN SAYING.

AS HE SIGNS THE EXECUTIVE ORDERS IT IS ALMOST WITH REGRET.

AS YOU REMEMBER HE WAS SIGNING THE MAXIMUM PRESSURE ON.

SO, ELLIOT ABRAMS, LET ME ASK YOU PARTICULARLY FROM THE PREVIOUS GOVERNMENT WORK, WHAT YOU THINK IS GOING ON AND HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE WHERE TRUMP IS ON THIS?

>> I THINK THAT THIS IS THE AUTHENTIC TRUMP, CHRISTIANE.

WHICH IS THEY CANNOT HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

THAT IS WHAT HE SAID LAST TIME.

THE PURPOSE OF THE MAXIMUM PRESSURE CAMPAIGN WAS NOT REGIME CHANGE, HE WAS NOT INTERESTED IN.

IT WAS TO GET WHAT HE THOUGHT WAS A BETTER DEAL THAN THE 2015 OBAMA DEAL.

ONE THAT WOULD LAST LONGER AND INCLUDE MORE THINGS.

HE WANTS THAT AGAIN.

HE SAYS VERY TRUMP LIKE, LOOK, WE CAN GET THERE THROUGH BOMBING THEIR NUCLEAR PROGRAM, NEGOTIATIONS.

I WANT NEGOTIATIONS.

AND I THINK THERE WILL IN FACT BE A NEGOTIATION AND FOR ALL WE KNOW SOME FEELERS ARE STARTING NOW SECRETLY.

>> SO YOU ARE NOT QUOTING TRUMP I THINK THERE WILL BE A NEGOTIATION.

>> I THINK THERE WILL BE.

TRUMP WANTS ONE.

THE ONLY THING THAT WOULD STOP IT IS THE IRANIAN SIDE.

THE SUPREME LEADER HAS SPOKEN, HAS SAID NEGOTIATIONS ARE STUPID AND USELESS.

THEY ARE USELESS.

BUT HE IS NOT ACTUALLY SAID THAT THEREFORE I FORBID IT.

I THINK WHAT HE IS REALLY DOING IS PROTECTING HIMSELF.

SETTING UP -- IN THE FOREIGN MINISTRY TO TAKE THE FALL IF NEGOTIATIONS GO BADLY.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, YOU BOTH HAVE SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT VIEWS AS TO HOW TO ADDRESS IRAN.

ELLIOT ABRAMS TALKED ABOUT THE LATEST TRUMP QUOTES IN WHICH HE SAID THEY MUST NOT HAVE A MAN WE COULD GO EITHER WAY.

YOU KNOW, I WANT TO NEGOTIATE.

EARLIER WHEN SIGNING THE MAXIMUM PRESSURE EXECUTIVE ORDER HE ALSO SAID THE FOLLOWING, THIS I WAS A LITTLE STUNNED BY.

I WANT YOUR REACTION TOO.

>> THEY CANNOT HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

BEYOND THAT IT WOULD BE VERY TOUGH IF THEY INSIST ON DOING THAT.

THEY HAVE SOME OF THEIR LEADERSHIP, I CAN TELL YOU, RIGHT NOW AND MAYBE YOU KNOW IT AND MAYBE YOU DON'T.

BUT THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE AT THE TOP RANKS OF IRAN THAT DO NOT WANT TO HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON JUST FOR THAT VERY REASON.

>> THAT IS AN INTERESTING THING FOR PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP TO SAY.

45 YEARS OF AMERICAN POLICY HAS BEEN BASED ON SAYING THAT IRAN WANTS A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

WHAT DID YOU TAKE FROM THAT?

>> FIRST OF ALL I HAVE TO SAY THAT HE DID NOT SIGN EXECUTIVE ORDER, HE SIGNED A MEMO.

AND THAT IS A BIT DIFFERENT.

ALTHOUGH THE LANGUAGE AND IT WAS PRETTY TOUGH.

I THINK HE'S HAD A NUMBER OF THINGS WHICH WERE SURPRISING.

ONE, HE INSISTED IRAN WAS ACTUALLY NOT WEAK.

IT WAS STRONG.

IRAN'S COUNTER TO THE NARRATIVE OUT THERE.

AS ELLIOT ABRAMS SAID, HE WAS CREATING A BIT OF ROOM TO SAY THAT THEY ARE NOT IMMINENTLY HAVING A NUCLEAR WEAPON AND MAY NOT WANT IT AND THEREFORE I DO NOT NEED TO BOMB THEM, DO REGIME CHANGE, I WANT NEGOTIATIONS WITH THEM.

I AGREE WITH ELLIOTT, I THINK THAT THERE WILL BE NEGOTIATIONS, THERE IS A LOT OF PRE-NEGOTIATION POSTURING GOING ON.

IRAN HAS REACTED ANGRILY TO WHAT TRUMP SIGNED.

I THINK THAT IS BECAUSE THE SUPREME LEADER WANTS TO SAY DO NOT ASSUME WE ARE WEAK.

HE DOES NOT WANT CONSTITUENTS IN IRAN TO THINK THEY ARE BEING BULLIED TO THE TABLE, THAT IRAN WILL GO TO THE TABLE WITH THEIR CHEST FORWARD AND HELD, HEAD HELD HIGH.

I THINK TRUMP LAID THE FOUNDATIONS FOR A NEGOTIATED APPROACH TO SOME KIND OF A NUCLEAR CEASE-FIRE WITH IRAN.

>> LET ME READ THE RESPONSE.

YOU SAID ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING FROM IRAN.

SO THE FOREIGN MINISTER HAS RESPONDED.

TO TRUMP'S LATEST.

MAXIMUM PRESSURE IS A FAILED EXPERIENCE AND TRYING IT AGAIN WILL BE TO ANOTHER FAILURE.

IF THE MATED SHE WAS THAT IRAN DOES NOT PURSUE NUCLEAR WEAPONS, THAT IS ACHIEVABLE AND THERE IS NO PROBLEM.

AGAIN, SIGNALING THAT THEY ARE OPEN TO A DEAL.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ELLIOTT, I KNOW THAT YOU TAKE A CERTAIN MILITARY AND HARD-LINE TOWARDS FIXING WHAT YOU THINK IS THE IRAN PROBLEM.

BUT TRUMP, AS YOU KNOW IS THE ONE WHO PULLED OUT OF WHAT WAS AN ARMS CONTROL AGREEMENT.

THAT IS IT.

THE JC P O A.

THEN HE TALKED ABOUT MAXIMUM PRESSURE IN THE BETTER BARGAIN.

AND HE GOT NOTHING, NOTHING!

YOU JUST GOT THEM TO BUILD MORE , ENRICH MORE URANIUM.

DO YOU THINK HE IS, I DON'T KNOW, SEEING THE ERROR OF THOSE WAYS?

DOES HE THINK HE CAN GET A BETTER DEAL OR JUST A DEAL THAT IS A TRUMP DEAL?

>> YOU WILL HAVE TO HAVE A BETTER DEAL.

HIS VIEW AND MY VIEW IS THE MAXIMUM PRESSURE CAMPAIGN LASTED ONLY TWO YEARS.

REMEMBER IT DID NOT START THE DAY HE WAS ELECTED.

IN 2016.

IT STARTED IN 2019, 2020.

I THE END IT HAD A HUGE EFFECT ON IRAN.

THEIR RESERVE, FOREIGN CURRENCY RESERVE THAT THEY COULD REACH WERE DOWN TO $4 BILLION.

THEY ARE BACK UP TO 50 OR 60 NOW.

THE PROBLEM, I THINK, IS NOT GOING TO BE THE NUCLEAR DEAL, IF IRAN IS WILLING TO WALK AWAY FROM BUILDING NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT TRUMP, OR THE CHALLENGES THAT TRUMP WANTS MORE.

HE IS GOING TO SAY, AND NO MORE WEAPON SHIP MINUTES.

LEAVE THE MILITIAS IN IRAQ ALONE.

HE WILL SAY STOP THE PROXY WARS.

I DO NOT KNOW IF IRAN IS WILLING TO DO THAT.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK THAT?

CLEARLY THEY ARE IN A BAD POSITION REGARDING THEIR PROXIES.

ALL OF THEM, ONE BY ONE HAVE BEEN FALLING LIKE DOMINOES UNDER THE WEIGHT OF ISRAELI FIRE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

WHERE IS THE NEGOTIATING LEVERAGE?

>> I THINK PARTLY THEY SEE THE NEGOTIATING LEVERAGE, WHAT PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP IS DOING TO THE REST OF THE MIDDLE EAST AND THE PERCEPTION THAT HE IS GOING TO OVERWHELM THE AMERICAN SYSTEM INSIDE , THAT THE HONEYMOON RIGHT NOW WITH HIS ADMINISTRATION WILL NOT LAST.

AND PARTICULARLY THEY ARE LOOKING AT THE PRESSURE ON THE TALK OF TAKING OVER GAZA.

THEY ARE NOT SEEING THE IRAN- U.S. ISSUE UNFOLDING ALONE, SEPARATE FROM WHAT ELSE IS HAPPENING IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

BUT I ALSO THINK IT DEPENDS ON WHAT SOURCE, SORT OF NEGOTIATION AND DEAL TAKES PLACE.

IN OTHER WORDS IF WE HAVE A DEAL -- A LONG TIME TO NEGOTIATE LIKE JCPOA TOOK TWO YEARS, THEN THAT WILL BE MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO NEGOTIATE.

BUT IF THERE IS A QUICKER DEAL, IN RETURN GETTING TO SELL MORE OIL AND HAVING SOME SANCTIONS RELIEVED, SOMEWHAT LIKE WHAT HAPPENED IN OMAN BETWEEN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION AND IRAN BEFORE OCTOBER 7th, IN WHICH IRAN MADE CERTAIN EVEN REGIONAL CONCESSIONS AND NOT SELLING MISSILES TO RUSSIA, AS WELL AS FREEZING NUCLEAR PROGRAMS.

AT LEAST AS A PRELUDE TO SOMETHING BIGGER.

THAN I THINK THAT THIS CAN UNFOLD RATHER QUICKLY.

AND YOU GET INTO A STREAM FOR A LONGER PERIOD NEGOTIATION.

BUT THAT WILL BE FURTHER DOWN THE ROAD.

>> LET ME PLAY THIS SOUNDBITE.

WE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT IT AT THE TOP, ELLIOTT.

YOU CAN THEN REACT TO IT.

IT IS TRUMP THIS PAST WEEKEND REGARDING WHETHER HE WANTS TO ATTACK IRAN.

>> EVERYONE THINKS ISRAEL WITH OUR HELP OR APPROVAL WILL GO IN AND BOMB THE -- OUT OF THEM.

I WOULD PREFER THAT NOT HAPPEN.

I WOULD MUCH RATHER SEE A DEAL WITH IRAN WHERE WE CAN DO A DEAL, SUPERVISE, CHECK IT, INSPECT IT, THEN BLOW IT UP OR MAKE SURE THERE IS NO MORE NUCLEAR.

YOU COULD NOT ALLOW THEM TO HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

THERE IS TWO WAYS OF STOPPING THEM, BOMBS OR WRITTEN PIECE OF PAPER.

>> AS IT GOES OVER A LITTLE OF WHAT YOU SAID, ELLIOTT, HE DID TALK ABOUT ISRAEL.

AND I KNOW THAT THIS HAS BEEN A TOPIC OF A LOT OF CONVERSATION.

EVEN FROM PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF AND OTHERS, THAT MAYBE ISRAEL WOULD DO IT, MAYBE AMERICA WILL HELP ISRAEL.

I THINK YOU ARE SAYING POTENTIALLY THAT AMERICA NEEDS TO MAKE REPS, PREPARATION NOW.

FOR SOME KIND OF ATTACK ON IRAN.

>> YES, I THINK THAT IS RIGHT.

I THINK TRUMP NEEDS TO MAKE GOOD ON BOTH HALVES OF THAT.

THE TALKING PART, IF HE WANTS TO DO THAT.

BUT ALSO THE MILITARY PREPARATION.

THE JOINT PLANNING, FOR EXAMPLE.

WE HAVE DONE UNDER BIDEN, WE DID EXERCISES WITH ISRAEL THAT OBVIOUSLY WERE SUGGESTIVE OF AN ATTACK ON IRAN.

AND I DO THINK THAT ON THE CALENDAR WE SHOULD SEE THE WORD SNAPBACK.

THE ABILITY TO SNAPBACK THE U.N. SANCTIONS, THAT DISAPPEARS IN OCTOBER.

IT IS NOT SOMETHING YOU DO IN ONE DAY, IT IS A PROCESS.

THAT REALLY HAS TO BE STARTED BY THE SUMMER.

WHICH MEANS WE HAVE ONLY GOT MAYBE SIX MONTHS.

MAYBE A LITTLE BIT LESS TO GET A SERIOUS NEGOTIATION PRODUCING SOMETHING.

OR THERE HAS TO BE SNAPBACK.

I WOULD SAY ALSO DURING THOSE SIX MONTHS, YES, TRUMP SHOULD MAKE SOME MOVES TO SHOW HE IS QUITE SERIOUS ABOUT THE MILITARY SIDE, IF IRAN WILL NOT ABANDON ITS NUCLEAR WEAPONS PROGRAM.

>> AGAIN, HOW DO YOU SEE THAT UNFOLDING?

FOR SURE IRAN IS IN A WEAKER POSITION THAT IT HAS BEEN, OR AT LEAST OSTENSIBLY FOR A LONG, LONG TIME.

HAVING LOST A LOT OF ITS PROXIES, IT HAS VERY SERIOUS ENERGY CRISIS.

EVEN THOUGH IT IS A MASSIVE ENERGY PRODUCER.

TERRIBLE CURRENCY PROBLEMS, ECONOMIC PROBLEMS, AND THE LIKE.

WHAT WOULD THAT KIND OF PREP THAT ELLIOTT IS TALKING ABOUT, THAT VISIBLE PREP FOR MILITARY ATTACK DO?

HOW WOULD THEY REACT TO THAT PRESSURE?

>> I THINK ELLIOTT IS CORRECT, THE SNAPBACK DATE IS PRESSURE ON THEM.

WE ALSO HAVE TO NUMBER THE LAST TIME THEY HAD THAT CEASE-FIRE AGREEMENT IN OMAN WITH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, THE U.S. DID NOT PULL A TRIGGER AT THE U.N. THAT IT COULD HAVE.

THAT IS WHY I THINK THAT THERE WILL BE A SHORT-TERM AGREEMENT, AS A BASIS FOR MUCH OF WHAT COULD BE A LONGER AGO STATION.

IRAN DOES TAKE THE MILITARY CAPABILITIES OF ISRAEL AND ITS WAY TO HIT IRAN QUITE SERIOUSLY.

AGAIN, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE CAVEATS HERE IN TERMS OF WHAT THE U.S. CAN DO.

AN ATTACK ON IRAN WILL END PIECE IN THE GULF.

IT WILL PUT SAUDI ARABIA AND -- ECONOMIC ADVANCEMENT IN JEOPARDY AND PUSH THE U.S. TO HAVE TO GO BEYOND JUST BOMBING THE IRAN NUCLEAR SITES TO GREATER MILITARY CONFRONTATION WITH IRAN.

I AM NOT SAYING THAT NECESSARILY IRAN WOULD RESPOND MILITARILY TO AN ISRAELI AMERICAN ATTACK ON ITS SITE, BUT IT COULD.

I THINK THE CALCULATION, THEY THINK YOU HAVE A PRESIDENT THAT DOES NOT LIKE OR, DOES NOT WANT TO GO TO WAR, AND HE CAN START A WAR THAT HE CANNOT STOP.

AND IN A WAY I DO NOT THINK IT IS AS SIMPLE FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TO SIGNAL THAT IT IS EITHER YOU COME TO THE TABLE OR WE WILL ATTACK YOU.

HAVING SAID THAT I THINK IRAN WANTS TO TALK.

THE MESSAGE OF WHEN THEIR FOREIGN MINISTER, THE VICE PRESIDENT WROTE IN FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND THEN THE MESSAGE THAT HAS BEEN COMING OUT OF IRAN ALL ALONG IS ONE THAT THEY ARE WILLING TO TALK.

PERHAPS THERE HAS BEEN SOME KIND OF FEELERS GOING OUT.

I DO NOT THINK EITHER WHAT PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP SIGNED OR WHAT THE SUPREME LEADER SAID NECESSARILY -- THE FACT THAT WE WILL BE WORKING INTO SOME NEGOTIATION.

>> ELLIOTT I SAW YOU SHAKING YOUR HEAD TO SOME PARTS AND KNOTTING TO OTHERS.

>> THE ATTACK ON THE IRANIAN NUCLEAR SITES WILL SAY THIS IS MASSIVE OR THROUGHOUT THE MIDDLE EAST.

IT IS NOT WHAT HAPPENED.

WHEN ISRAEL ATTACKED IRAN.

IT IS SIMPLY INSANE FOR IRAN TO GET INTO A WAR WITH THE UNITED STATES.

BY RESPONDING TO AN ATTACK ON NUCLEAR SITES, FOR EXAMPLE, BY TRYING TO SYNC UP AMERICAN NAVY SHIPS IN THE GULF.

THAT WOULD BE INSANE.

I DO NOT THINK THEY ARE INSANE.

I THINK IT WOULD THREATEN THE SURVIVAL OF THE REGIME TO DO THAT.

I THINK THE NOTION THAT THIS NECESSARILY EXPANDS TO WORLD WAR III CANNOT BE SUSTAINED.

>> THIS IS PERSONAL, YOU HAD COLLEAGUES IN THE ADMINISTRATION THE LAST TIME AROUND.

WORKING ON THE IRAN FILE ON BEHALF OF PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP.

AND HE HAS TAKEN AWAY NOT JUST THE SECURITY DETAILS, WHEN WE KNOW FROM INTELLIGENCE THAT THERE IS STILL A THREAT TO THEM, PARTICULARLY IRAN MAY LOOK TO AVENGE THE ASSASSINATION OF -- UNDER TRUMP.

AS A PERSON CAN YOU UNDERSTAND WHY TRUMP WOULD HAVE MADE THESE PEOPLE POTENTIALLY MORE EASY SITTING DUCKS?

>> IT IS INDEFENSIBLE.

IT IS JUST, YOU KNOW, SORT OF A PERSONAL STRIKE AT THEM.

FOR REASONS THAT REALLY, YOU TAKE SOMEONE LIKE BRIAN HOOK, NOT CLEAR AT ALL.

SIMPLY IT IS INDEFENSIBLE.

PEOPLE AT THE UNTIL SAY WHAT YOU JUST SAID, THE THREAT IS STILL THERE.

TAKING AWAY THEIR SECURITY, THAT IS AN AWFUL THING TO HAVE DONE.

>> AND TO YOU, JUST EXPANDING A LITTLE, THE THREATS TO EXPEL BE PALESTINIAN POPULATION AND PRESSURE, TWO COUNTRIES THAT HAVE GONE INTO PEACE AGREEMENTS WITH ISRAEL, JORDAN AND EGYPT, UPON WHOM QUITE A LOT OF SECURITY DOES DEPEND.

BOTH OF WHOM, AT LEAST JORDAN, GOT UP AND DEFENDED ISRAEL AGAINST IRANIAN MISSILES.

HOW DO YOU THINK THIS WILL PLAY OUT IF IN FACT THE JORDANIAN NATION IS COMPROMISED?

IN DESTABILIZED.

>> THE WAY THE IRANIANS SEE IT, THIS REGION IS HEADED TOWARDS MUCH GREATER CHAOS.

MORE CHAOS THERE IS, THE MORE U.S.

CREATES INSTABILITY IN THE ARAB WORLD, THE MORE CAPACITY THAT WE HAVE TO THREATEN IRAN MILITARY OR CONTEMPLATE MILITARY ACTION.

IN THE PRESSURE WOULD GET LESS.

THE IRANIANS DO NOT SEE A WHOLE COHERENT U.S. POLICY THAT IS ISOLATING THEM IN THE REGION.

IT IS MAKING IRAN THE SOLE PROBLEM OF THE REGION.

IRAN IS NOT THE PROBLEM OR THE GREATER THREAT TO THE SECURITY.

IN MANY WAYS THAT EXPLAINS WHY THEY ARE REACHING OUT TO IRAN JUST AS THEY ARE FACING GREATER CHALLENGES IN GAZA AND SYRIA.

THE WAY OF THINKING ABOUT IT, TRUMP HAD THE ADMINISTRATION WITH THINGS LIKE IRAN IN 2018, 2020, ISOLATED IN THE REGION.

THE DYNAMICS BUT THE REGION IS GOING AGAINST IS NOT QUITE THE WAY TO TEHRAN SEES IT.

>> FASCINATING.

HOPEFULLY WE CAN HAVE YOU BACK.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> NEXT, TO BRAZIL.

A CAUTIONARY TALE OF MILITARY DICTATORSHIP.

BACKED BY THE U.S. AT THE HEIGHT OF THE COLD WAR.

NOW IN OSCAR NOMINATED FILM EXPLORES THE DARK HISTORY.

"I'M STILL HERE," WITH FERNANDA TORRES IS A TALE OF A WOMAN FIGHTING FOR JUSTICE AFTER HER HUSBAND IS ARRESTED AND ASSASSINATED BY THE MILITARY.

BASED ON A TRUE STORY OF RUBENS PAIVA AND HIS WIDOW, EUNICE PAIVA, WHO FIGHTS A LONG AND LONELY BATTLE FOR TRUTH AND ACCOUNTABILITY.

WHILE ALSO TRYING TO STRAY -- STAY STRONG FOR THE FIVE CHILDREN SHE HAS BEEN LEFT TO RAISE ALONE.

I SPOKE WITH FERNANDA TORRES AND THE DIRECTOR WALTER SALLES ABOUT THE FILM'S RELEVANCE, DECADES ON FROM THE EVENTS THAT INSPIRED IT.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

GREAT TO SEE YOU.

IT WAS AN AMAZING FILM.

PARTICULARLY FOR OUR TIMES.

LET'S GET TO THE BASIS OF IT.

FERNANDA, YOU PLAY THE HEROIN.

IS A TRUE STORY OF HER HUSBAND, YOUR HUSBAND, HER HUSBAND, WHO GETS ARRESTED AND LATER WE FIND OUT WHAT HAPPENS TO HIM.

YOU ARE THE MOTHER OF FIVE CHILDREN AND IT IS SET DURING THE DICTATORSHIP THAT EMERGES IN BRAZIL.

U.S.

BACKED DICTATORSHIP, BY THE WAY.

GIVE ME THE IDEA OF WHAT YOU WERE TRYING TO PORTRAY, FERNANDA?

>> TRYING TO BE FAITHFUL TO THIS GREAT WOMAN CALLED EUNICE PAIVA, WHO WAS RAISED TO BE LIKE THE PERFECT HOUSEWIFE OF THE 50s.

SHE WAS A GREAT WOMAN BEHIND A GREAT MAN.

AND THEN THIS TRAGEDY HAPPENED IN THEIR LIVES.

AND SHE BECOMES A WIDOW WITH FIVE CHILDREN.

THEN SHE GOES BACK TO LAW SCHOOL, SHE REINVENTS HERSELF, I THINK SHE FINDS WHO SHE REALLY IS AFTER THIS TRAGEDY.

SHE BECOMES A HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER, DEFENDANT OF THE INDIGENOUS RIGHTS OF INDIGENOUS RESERVES AND BECOMES THIS AMAZING WOMAN THAT NOBODY KNEW, ACTUALLY.

AND SO I WAS TRYING TO BE FAITHFUL TO HER.

NOT MAKE A MELODRAMA OUT OF HER LIFE.

YOU SEE, THAT IS SOMETHING THAT INVOLVED HER.

WE SAID WE HAD TO BE FAITHFUL TO HER RIGHTEOUSNESS.

>> IT SEEMS YOU ABSOLUTELY WERE.

WE WILL GET INTO THAT HIGHLY CONTROLLED, DIGNIFIED PERFORMANCE YOU PUT ON, NOT MELODRAMATIC.

I AM REALLY INTERESTED, WALTER, YOU KNOW AS WE SEE WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE WORLD RIGHT NOW, RIGHT, RIGHT NOW, AND WE SEE PURGES IN MANY COUNTRIES, EVEN IN DEMOCRATIC COUNTRIES.

WHAT HAPPENED TO RUBENS PAIVA, THE HEROINE'S HUSBAND, WAS ESSENTIALLY AN ANTI-COMMUNIST WITCHHUNT PURGE.

WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO DO THIS STORY?

>> THERE WERE MANY LAYERS TO THAT.

BUT I THINK THE COMMON THREAT WAS THE COMMON IDEA WAS TO OFFER A RECONSTRUCTION OF MEMORY.

MEMORY OF THE FAMILY.

YOU KNOW, THE STORY OF THAT MOTHER AND FATHER AND THEIR FIVE CHILDREN WHO HAPPEN TO BE CLOSE FRIENDS OF MINE IN REAL LIFE.

ALSO, REBUILD COLLECTIVE MEMORY.

THE MEMORY OF BRAZILE AT THAT TIME PILL.

THE FILM WAS BASED ON THE BOOK BASED OFF OF THE BOOK WRITTEN BY THE YOUNGEST KID OF THE FAMILY.

WE COULD OFFER THIS RECONSTRUCTION OF THIS HISTORY THAT WE THOUGHT WAS PRETTY MUCH A REFLECTION OF OUR PAST.

AND LITTLE BY LITTLE WE UNDERSTOOD THAT IT WAS ALSO A FILM ABOUT OUR PRESENT, THE ZEITGEIST STARTED TO CHANGE.

I THINK THAT THIS IS WHAT TRULY UNITED THE WHOLE CREW, THE ACTORS, WE HAD THE IMPRESSION THAT WE WERE DOING A FILM THAT WAS FOR TODAY.

NOT ONLY A FILM LOOKING TOWARDS THE PAST OF THE BRAZILIAN DICTATORSHIP.

>> THAT IS INTERESTING.

I WANT TO GO FURTHER INTO IT BEFORE GETTING TO THE FIRST CLIP.

FERNANDA, WHAT IS THAT MEAN TO YOU IN TERMS OF IT BEING THE ZEITGEIST OF THE MOMENT?

BRAZIL IS A DEMOCRACY NOW ALTHOUGH IT DID HAVE THAT 26 YEARS OF MILITARY DICTATORSHIP.

YOUR PARENTS I UNDERSTAND MORE NOT ONLY ARTISTS BUT SUBJECT TO CENSORSHIP AND FEAR AND THE REST.

TELL ME WHAT YOU REMEMBER ABOUT THAT.

>> WELL, I THINK I REMEMBERED I LEARNED THE WORD CENSORSHIP, EVEN LIKE WAS MAMA, PAPA, CENSORSHIP.

BECAUSE THEY WERE SO AFRAID.

NOT AFRAID.

THEY WERE THEATER PRODUCERS AND BEFORE THE OPENING, FOR INSTANCE, OF A PLAY, THEY HAD TO DO ONE SESSION FOR THE SENSOR.

THE SENSOR COULD FORBID THE WHOLE PLAY, COULD CUT PAGES OF THE PLAY.

SO THAT WAS A CONSTANT PROBLEM FOR THEM.

MY FATHER HAD LIKE PLAYS, MUSICAL BY -- AND TOTALLY WAS FORBIDDEN.

THIS WAS LIKE THE COMMON THING.

IT ALSO HE HAD LIKE FRIENDS WHO WERE TAKEN FROM HOME.

JUST LIKE RUBENS PAIVA.

I REMEMBER THAT.

MUCH.

PRETTY MUCH.

AND NOW WHAT WE SAW, IT WAS AGAIN THIS KIND OF WITCH HUNTING FOR COMMUNISTS.

EVERYBODY WAS A COMMUNIST.

AND IT WAS A STRANGE TIME AGAIN.

AND THAT IS WHY HE WROTE THE BOOK.

BECAUSE HIS MOTHER WAS HAVING ALZHEIMER'S AND BEGINNING TO FORGET.

AND HE THOUGHT THAT THE COUNTRY WAS ALSO STARTING TO FORGET ABOUT WHAT DID IT MEAN TO LIVE IN A DICTATORSHIP.

SO IT IS A BRIDGE BETWEEN THAT TIME NOW, YOU SEE.

>> I GUESS YOU DID THAT ON PURPOSE, USING THE MEMORY IDEA BY LOOKING THROUGH PHOTOS A LOT, COLLECTING MEMORIES.

TALKING.

ET CETERA.

I WANT TO PLAY THE FIRST CLIP WE HAVE.

ESSENTIALLY GUESS THE DICTATORSHIP IS THERE BUT IT IS AT THE VERY BEGINNING.

YOU ARE HAVING A NICE FAMILY DAY ON THE BEACH.

THEN THERE IS SORT OF A SINISTER BACKGROUND.

HERE WE GO.

>> SO, FERNANDA, THAT SCENE ENDS WITH YOU CATCHING A GLIMPSE AND FOCUSING ON THE MILITARY VEHICLES.

I WANT TO ASK YOU THOUGH, WALTER, BECAUSE YOU MADE A CHOICE TO PORTRAY THIS FAMILY IN A WAY THAT THE PARENTS, PARTICULARLY EUNICE, PLAYED BY FERNANDA, TRIED TO PROTECT THEM AS MUCH AS SHE COULD.

THE CHILDREN.

THEY ASKED QUESTIONS I WANTED TO KNOW WHERE THEIR FATHER WAS.

BUT SHE NEVER TOLD THEM, REALLY, EXCEPT THE OLDEST ONE.

AND I KEPT FEELING, WHEN IS THIS GOING TO STOP?

YOU KNOW, BECAUSE I FELT THE KIDS WERE GETTING ANXIOUS.

BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT BEING TOLD THE TRUTH.

IS THAT A COMMENT ON THE TRUTH OF THE TIME OR A PROTECTIVE MOTHER?

>> I THINK BOTH.

THE SCENE YOU JUST SHOWED IS LIKE A GREEK OMEN TO ME.

EUNICE IS THE ONLY ONE, THE ONLY PERSON IN THE GROUP THAT REALIZES THAT SOMETHING IS OUT OF ORDER.

THAT THE MILITARY TRUCKS ARE PASSING.

THEREFORE, ANNOUNCING SOMETHING THAT IS NOT COMFORTABLE.

YOU KNOW, FOR ME, THAT FAMILY WAS A FAMILY THAT LIVED WITH INTENSITY.

WITH THAT INTENSITY.

IS A FORM OF RESISTANCE, DURING THE MILITARY DICTATORSHIP.

THE FILM WAS REALLY ABOUT HOW THAT LIFE WAS ROBBED WHEN THE FATHER IS TAKEN AWAY.

AND THE MOTHER HAS TO FACE THAT TRAGEDY.

OF DEALING WITH THE LOSS.

HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THE LOSS?

YOU EITHER ARE SUBJECT TO IT OR YOU TRY TO OVERCOME IT.

SHE DID TRY TO OVERCOME IT.

BUT SHE, ULTIMATELY, SHE EMBRACED THE POSSIBILITY OF LIFE.

YOU KNOW?

IT IS A VERY LIFE-AFFIRMING DECISION SHE MADE.

BUT IT IS ONE THAT IS VERY COMPLEX BECAUSE SHE HAD SECRETS.

SECRETS THAT SHE DID NOT SHARE WITH THOSE KIDS.

SO THEY DID HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE DEATH OF THEIR FATHER SEPARATELY, IN DIFFERENT TIMES OF THEIR LIVES.

>> INTERESTINGLY, EACH ONE FIGURES OUT, YOU PORTRAYED THIS AT THE END OF THE FILM, WHEN THEY KNEW THEIR FATHER WAS DEAD.

SHE NEVER TELLS THEM.

FERNANDA, YOUR CHARACTER EUNICE NEVER TELLS THEM UNTIL A CERTAIN PERIOD.

YOU ARE CONTROLLED, STOIC, DIGNIFIED WITH APPEARANCE, AND PERFORMANCE.

IT CRACKS.

AT ONE TIME.

THAT IS WHEN SOME SINISTER, I DO NOT KNOW IF IT IS ONE THE REGIME OR WHAT, KILLS THE DOG, THE FAMILY DOG.

AND THEN IN THIS SCENE THAT WE ARE GOING TO SHOW, THERE IS A CAR STATIONED OUTSIDE OF YOUR HOUSE ALL OF THE TIME.

THESE UNKNOWN PEOPLE, OBVIOUSLY FROM THE REGIME, THE DICTATORSHIP, BASICALLY THEY ARE WATCHING YOU.

HERE'S WHAT HAPPENS ON THIS OCCASION.

>> IT IS SO POWERFUL.

AND THAT ONE MOMENT YOU GET THE WHOLE STORY OF YOUR FEELINGS, YOUR PENT-UP EMOTIONS.

YOU DO NOT YET KNOW, YOU HAVE NOT BEEN TOLD OFFICIALLY YOUR HUSBAND IS DEAD.

HOW DID YOU PREPARE FOR THAT SCENE?

HOW DID YOU INTERNALIZE HER?

>> THAT IS WONDERFUL.

YOU NIECE -- EUNICE HAS FIVE CHILDREN.

SHE CANNOT SIT AND CRY, SHE IS NOT ALLOWED TO DO IT.

LIKE IT IS A GREEK FIGURE, MOTHER, SHE FACES TRAGEDY.

THE ONLY WAY FOR HER TO MOVE ON AND RAISE THOSE CHILDREN INTO SAVE THEIR INNOCENCE, IN A WAY, IS TO JUST SAY SMILE AND MOVE ON.

AND I NEVER WORKED WITH IT BECAUSE NORMALLY AS AN ACTOR YOU WANT TO SHOW EMOTIONS.

AND IN THE CASE OF EUNICE, YOU HAVE TO RESTRAIN THEM.

THE POWER OF IT, THAT THE AUDIENCE SITS IN THE CHAIR LIKE , PLEASE, DO SOMETHING!

SO THERE IS SOMETHING THAT THE AUDIENCE FEELS WITH YOU, WE ARE NOT FEELING AND SHOWING THEM.

THEY ARE FEELING FOR YOU.

AND I THINK THAT THIS IS VERY CLOSE TO GREEK TRAGEDY, NOT TELLING THE CHILDREN.

HOW CAN YOU TELL A CHILD THAT YOUR FATHER WAS TORTURED AND KILLED BY THE STATE?

IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS UNBEARABLE.

THAT IS WHY THIS IS POWERFUL, THIS IS A NORMAL FAMILY, BUT FACING SOMETHING LIKE THE SIZE OF GREAT GREEK TRAGEDY, THAT IS WHAT IS SO POWERFUL FOR ME IN THE MOVIE.

>> YOU MENTIONED ANTIQUITY, EXACTLY.

THERE IS A VERY WONDERFUL SCENE, IT IS TRUE BECAUSE YOU DEPICTED IT.

WHEN THE FAMILY, EUNICE AND THE KIDS, ARE TRYING TO GET THE STORY OUT.

UP UNTIL NOW EVERYBODY HAS BEEN AFRAID TO TALK PUBLICLY ABOUT IT.

THEN THEY GET THE MAGAZINE TO DO THE STORY.

WANTS TO SHOW THEM SMILING, HAPPY FAMILY.

TELL ME WHAT EUNICE DECIDED TO DO FOR THAT SHOOT.

>> EUNICE WAS SOMEBODY IN REAL LIFE, IN THE FILM, WHO ARCHITECTURE FORMS OF RESISTANCE THAT WERE UNHEARD OF.

AND ONE OF THEM THAT IS QUITE UNIQUE IS THAT WHENEVER THEY WERE ASKED AS A FAMILY, YOU KNOW, TO CRY OR TO BE PORTRAYED AS A SAD FAMILY, SHE ARTICULATED AND OFFERED THE OPPOSITE.

TO BE PORTRAYED AS A SMILING FAMILY.

THAT IS SHE NEVER ALLOWED HERSELF TO BE PORTRAYED AS BEING PART OF A MELODRAMA.

SHE REFUSED.

THE WHOLE SCENE IS ABOUT THAT.

THE ONE YOU ARE REFERRING.

SHE REALIZES ACTUALLY THAT ONE OF THE KIDS IS SMILING AND THE SECOND IS ALSO SMILING.

AND INSPIRED BY THAT SHE ARTICULATES THE IDEA THAT IN THE MOMENT, THAT IS THE BEAUTY OF IT, IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT WAS -- >> EXACTLY.

>> -- RATIONALIZED.

IT COMES FROM THE LIFE OF THE FAMILY ITSELF.

YOU KNOW?

IT TELLS SO MUCH ABOUT A WOMAN THAT THOUGHT, YOU KNOW, ACCORDING, NOT ONLY TO HER BELIEFS BUT ALSO ACCORDING TO HER INTUITION OF THE MOMENT.

IT BLENDS THOSE TWO THINGS.

>> INDEED.

AND LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THAT FULL CIRCLE AND REACTION TODAY.

IT IS A DEMOCRACY NOW, YOUR COUNTRY.

BUT YOU HAVE SAID, I READ, THAT YOU PROBABLY CANNOT GET THE FILM DONE HAD IT BEEN DURING THOSE YEARS.

AND THAT EVEN AFTER THE FILM WAS RELEASED, EVIDENCE CAME OF PLOTS AGAINST YOUR CURRENT PRESIDENT.

TRYING TO BRING BACK BOTH SCENARIO.

IT IS IMMEDIATE, THIS STUFF.

RIGHT?

>> IT TOOK SEVEN YEARS TO DO THE FILM.

SEVEN YEARS TO BE ON YOUR PROGRAM.

WE ARE SO PROUD.

>> IT IS THE PEAK.

>> THE PEAK OF OUR JOURNEY.

BUT IT ALSO TOOK SEVEN YEARS BECAUSE WE DID THREE YEARS OF RESEARCH TO MAKE JUSTICE TO THE FAMILY, TO MAKE JUSTICE TO THE CULTURE, TO THE AUTHENTICITY OF WHAT WE WERE PRETRAINING.

BUT ALSO IT TOOK US SEVEN YEARS BECAUSE DURING FOUR YEARS THE COUNTRY STEER TO THE EXTREME RIGHT AND WE WOULD NOT HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO SHOOT THE FILM DURING THAT PERIOD.

THEREFORE THE FILM IS THE PRODUCT OF THE RETURN OF DEMOCRACY OF BRAZIL.

>> THAT IS INTERESTING.

>> AND IT IS REALLY HIS RETURN TO THE PRESIDENCY AND THE RETURN OF DEMOCRACY THAT ALLOWED THE FILM TO EXIST.

WE SHOT IT IN 2023 AND WITHOUT HAVING THE SLIGHTEST IDEA THAT THERE HAD BEEN IF THEY HOLD ATTEMPT OF A MILITARY COUP, AT THE END OF 2022.

AND DUST THE FILM WAS BRING LAUNCH TO BRAZIL AND EMBRACED BY THE AUDIENCE, THAT NEWS ACTUALLY WERE UNNERVED BY THE FEDERAL POLICE THAT THAT COUP THAT INCLUDED THE ASSASSINATION OF THE PRESIDENT, AND THE VICE PRESIDENT, HAD ALMOST BEEN, YOU KNOW, THE REALITY OF THE COUNTRY.

>> HAD ALMOST SUCCEEDED.

NOW.

>> SO THAT WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE LAUNCH OF THE FILM WHEN WE REALIZED THAT MORE THAN EVER IT WAS A FILM ABOUT TODAY.

YOU KNOW?

ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING IN THE COUNTRY.

AT THIS VERY MOMENT.

>> AND CLEARLY -- >> -- AND THE ACTIVE PARTICIPATION CLEARLY WAS NOT IN OUR PLANS.

IT JUST HAPPENED.

IT WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY COINCIDENCE.

>> ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE CAME TO THE MOVIE THEATERS.

SO YOU HAVE RIGHT WING, LEFT RING, CENTER, PROGRESSIVES, AND IT WAS LIKE AROUND THE FAMILY.

THE PAIVA FAMILY.

WE COULD ALL COME TO A SENSE THAT WAS A DICTATOR REGIME WAS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

THAT WAS A MIRACLE OF THIS MOVIE.

WE ALL WERE SURPRISED.

KNOW?

BECAUSE ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE WERE GOING AND GETTING MOVED BY THIS FAMILY.

AND SAYING THAT IS NOT GOOD.

I MEAN, A THREAT OF MILITARY VIOLENCE IS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

>> IT IS VERY POWERFUL.

THE PEAK IS THAT YOU WERE NOMINATED FOR OSCARS AND BATH TO AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

CONGRATULATIONS, EVEN THOUGH THE MILITARY HAS NEVER BEEN HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR THE MURDER OF RUBENS PAIVA.

THANK YOU INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

SUCH AN HONOR.

>> THANK YOU.

AN ENORMOUS HONOR.

THANKS.

>> "I'M STILL HERE" IS OUT IN THE U.S. AND CANADA AND RELEASES IN THE UK LATER THIS MONTH.

IN BRAZIL THE FILM IS SPARKING A RENEWED DEBATE IN THE SUPREME COURT AND WHY THE SOCIETY, ABOUT THE COUNTRY'S 1979 LAW, PROVIDING AMNESTY TO REGIME OFFICIALS, MAYBE ACCOUNTABILITY IS IN THE FUTURE FINALLY.

>>> NEXT TO THE UBIQUITOUS YET HARMFUL ULTRA PROCESSED FOOD.

A PHYSICIAN AND CONTRAVENING WRITER FOR THE NEW YORKER, HE HAS BEEN INVESTIGATING THE DANGERS IN OUR DIET AND SPOKE WITH US ABOUT HIS FINDINGS.

>> THANKS DOCTOR FOR JOINING US.

YOU READY PIECE RECENTLY TITLED WHY IS THE AMERICAN DIET SO DEADLY?

YOU KNOW IT WOULD SEEM THAT AS YOU DIVE INTO ALL THE RESEARCH THAT THERE SHOULD BE A SIMPLE ANSWER.

THAT THERE IS NOT.

WHY?

>> IT IS A COMPLICATED ISSUE.

ONE THING THAT WE ARE STARTING TO LEARN MORE AND MORE ABOUT ALMOST EVERY DAY IS THE IDEA OF ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS.

THAT IS A BROAD CATEGORY AND ONE THAT WE HAVE ONLY HAD A NEW LEXICON FOR THE PAST 15 YEARS OR SO.

THE AMERICAN DIET HAS AMONG THE MOST ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS IN THE ENTIRE WORLD.

THINK ABOUT HOW WE COMPARE, 60 TO 70% OF OUR DIET IS ULTRA PROCESSED.

HALF OR A THIRD IN FRANCE OR SPAIN.

WE ARE THE OUTLIER IN THIS SPACE AND OUR CHRONIC OBESITY TRACKS WITH THAT.

>> WHAT IS PROCESSED AND ULTRA PROCESSED?

IF I LOOK AROUND MY PANTRY OR REFRIGERATOR, HOW DO I KNOW THE DIFFERENCE?

>> PEOPLE GENERALLY HAVE THE IDEA THAT IT IS BAD FOOD OR JUNK FOOD.

BUT THERE IS A SCIENTIFIC DEFINITION.

IF YOU THINK ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS YOU START AT THE BOTTOM.

MOST FOODS WHEN THEY COME OUT OF NATURE ARE UNPROCESSED OR MINIMALLY ASSESS.

EGGS, NUTS, VEGETABLES.

THESE ARE GROUP 1 FOODS, NATURAL AND HEALTHY.

THAT WE GET TO GROUP 2, CULINARY INGREDIENTS.

SALTED BUTTER, FAT, SUGAR.

THESE THINGS.

IF YOU AT THE FIRST GROUP AND THE SECOND GROUP AND YOU GET THE THIRD GROUP, PROCESSED.

ON MOST ALL THE FOOD WE HAVE IS PROCESSED IN SOME WAY.

BUTTER INSULTING YOUR PASTA IS NOW PROCESSED.

IT DOES NOT MEAN IT IS BAD.

WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IS THE FOURTH GROUP, THAT MEANS IT HAS UNNATURAL INGREDIENTS OR UNNATURAL PROCESSES TO GET THERE.

THESE FOODS HAVE HIGH FRUCTOSE CORN SYRUP OR HYDROGENATED OIL OR EMULSIFIERS AND THICKENERS.

ADDITIVES AND ALL SORTS.

THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WITH OVER ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS.

IT IS A BROAD CATEGORY, GUMMY BEARS TO CANNED KIDNEY BEANS MIGHT FALL IN THIS CATEGORY.

WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT WHEN WE SAY ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS ARE HARMING YOUR HEALTH.

>> WHAT IS THE EFFECT ON OUR HEALTH WHEN WE TAKE ON THESE ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS?

IS IT THE ABILITY TO DIGEST IT OR HOW WE STORE IT?

YOU LOOKED AT FASCINATING RESEARCH, WHICH HAD PEOPLE EAT PRETTY WEIRD DIETS, AS MUCH AS THEY WANTED FOR DAYS ON END.

>> IT IS A GREAT QUESTION AND WE ARE JUST STARTING TO GET RIGOROUS RESEARCH ON THIS.

FIRST THE RESEARCH THAT PUT THIS ON THE MAP WAS BROADSCALE SURVEY RESEARCH.

YOU MAY SEE THOUSANDS OR HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE, PEOPLE THAT EAT MORE ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS HAVE HIGHER RISK OF VASCULAR DISEASE OR DEMENTIA OR ANY NUMBER OF CONDITIONS.

NOW THEY ARE BRINGING PEOPLE IN THE LAB AND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT IF YOU BRING IN PEOPLE THAT ARE GIVEN 80% TO 90% ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS VERSUS PEOPLE WHO HAVE VERY LITTLE ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS, WHAT HAPPENS IN THEIR BODIES?

PEOPLE TEND TO EAT MANY MORE CALORIES AND AND ULTRA PROCESSED DIET VERSUS UNPROCESSED DIET.

STUDIES WE HAVE SEEN LIKE 500 TO 800 CALORIES MORE A DIE -- MORE A DAY, SO THAT IS THE HEADLINE FINDING.

THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF INTERESTING AND PROVOCATIVE FINDINGS.

DOES IT CHANGE OUR MICRO BIOME IN SOME WAY?

THE BACTERIA IN OUR GUT.

OUR HORMONE LEVEL AND CAUSES US TO FEEL HUNGRY, CAN WE CREATE SALT AND SUGAR AND OTHER THINGS THAT ARE UNNATURAL BECAUSE WE ARE USED TO THE ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS AND THE HIGH HITTING THINGS THAT THOSE OFFER.

THEY ARE SPECULATIVE AND WE ARE FIGURING THEM OUT.

THE FINDINGS SEEM TO BE THAT WE EAT MORE CALORIES ON THE ULTRA PROCESSED DIET.

THEN ON THE MINIMALLY PROCESSED DIET.

>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE ARC OF HOW LONG HUMANS HAVE BEEN ON THE PLANET AND EATING FOOD, THIS IS ALMOST A BLEAK OF AND I WHEN ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS WERE A NEW FACTION AND INTRODUCED IN OUR DIETS.

THERE ARE STILL SOCIETIES ON THE PLANET THAT HAVE FAR LESS OF THIS THAN YOU AND I MIGHT HAVE ACCESS TO TODAY.

RIGHT?

ARE THERE WAYS THAT WE CAN COMPARE CULTURALLY OR GEOGRAPHICALLY TO SAY, HEY, WE KNOW THAT IF YOU ARE ON A LITTLE BIT MORE OF A HOLISTIC OR MAYBE MEDITERRANEAN DIET OR JUST LESS PROCESS, YOUR HEALTH OUTCOMES ARE BETTER.

>> THAT GENERALLY SEEMS TO BE THE CASE.

COUNTRIES WITH A MORE TRADITIONAL DIET WITH THE LESS INDUSTRIALIZATION OF THEIR FOOD SYSTEM HAVE LOWER RATES OF OBESITY.

IN THE RESEARCHER THAT PUT THIS ON THE MAP, A RESEARCHER NAMED CARLOS MONTERO IN BRAZIL.

HE WAS TRACKING WHAT PEOPLE WERE BUYING WHEN THEY GO TO THE GROCERY STORE.

HE HAD RECEIVED.

HE SAID PEOPLE WERE BUYING LESS SALT, LESS SUGAR, LESS FAT.

SO HE THOUGHT HOW DO WE HAVE THE EXPLOSION OF OBESITY?

PEOPLE JUST BASICALLY ARE NOT BUYING THOSE THINGS BUT GETTING THEM PACKAGED IN FOODS THAT ARE ULTRA PROCESSED.

IT IS NOT JUST THINKING ABOUT SPECIFIC INGREDIENTS OR SPECIFIC NUTRIENTS, BUT HOW ARE THEY PACKAGED?

WHAT ARE THE OTHER ADDITIVES GOING INTO THESE THINGS?

WHY DO THEY HAVE LONG SHELF LIFE?

OBVIOUSLY PRESERVATIVES ALLOW FOR THAT.

THOSE TYPES OF THING HAVE AN IMPACT ON THE WAY WE ARE ABLE TO LIVE OUR LIFE AND PUT FOOD ON THE TABLE.

>> SO MANY OF US HAVE TRIED TO LISTEN OR WATCH THE FOOD PYRAMID GUIDELINES OR WHETHER IT IS THE HEALTHY MEAL PLATE THAT THE FDA OR DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE MIGHT RECOMMEND.

LIKE HOW WE MEET, HOW WE EAT.

IT IS ABOUT COUNTING CALORIES.

AND THEN WE WERE TOLD NOT ALL CALORIES ARE EQUAL.

WHAT ARE SIMPLE GUIDELINES THAT PEOPLE CAN USE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MODERATE THEIR CONSUMPTION?

BE HOW TO CONSUME MORE OF THE HEALTHY AND LESS OF THE UNHEALTHY.

>> MOST IMPORTANT ADVICE I CAN GIVE IS AS MUCH AS YOU CAN COOK YOUR OWN FOOD, THE BETTER BE IT.

THE THINGS, YOU WILL NEVER PUT AS MUCH SALT, SUGAR, FAT, CHOLESTEROL IN YOUR OWN FOOD THEN A RESTAURANT OR FAST FOOD JOINT WOULD PUT IN YOUR FOOD.

MY NUMBER ONE RECOMMENDATION IS TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU CAN COOK YOUR FOOD, PREPARE YOURSELF, ALL THE BETTER.

NOT EVERYONE HAS THE TIME AND THE ABILITY TO DO THAT.

A LOT OF FRESH FOODS CAN BE PRICEY AND NOT READILY AVAILABLE.

FROM THERE I THINK WE CAN MINIMIZE THE PROCESSING ON HOW WE ARE EATING.

THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ULTRA PROCESSED YOGURT THAT HAS ONE SPECIFIC EMULSIFIER THAT IMPROVES THE MOUTH FEEL OF THE YOGURT, VERSUS DORITOS OR SOMETHING HEAVILY PROCESSED.

KEEPING TO THINGS THAT ARE LESS PROCESSED ON THE ENTIRE SPECTRUM OF PROCESSING.

I ALSO GO BACK TO THE FAMOUS ADAGE, EAT REAL FOOD, NOT TOO MUCH, MOSTLY PLANTS.

IF YOU STICK TO THOSE WORDS THAT WILL GET YOU A LOT OF THE WAY THERE.

>> HOW MUCH OF THIS IS A SOCIAL DIMENSION?

I AM THINKING RIGHT NOW IF YOU GAVE ME THE ZIP CODE OF SOMEONE IN A TEST COHORT, I COULD PROBABLY GIVE YOU A DECENT GAS AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THE POPULATION HAS HIGH RATES OF HEART DISEASE, DIABETES, BASED ON POVERTY LEVELS.

AND WHETHER OR NOT THEY HAVE ACCESS TO WHETHER THEY LIVE IN A FEW DESERT.

LIKE THE CORNER BODEGAS ARE REALLY THE ONLY PLACE TO GET FOOD.

>> YOU ARE GETTING TO AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT POINT.

WE MAKE SOME DECISIONS ABOUT OUR FOOD BUT A LOT OF DECISIONS WE ARE ABLE TO MAKE OUR DECIDED BY ECONOMICS, OUR SOCIAL STATUS, POLITICS.

ALL OF THESE THINGS COME TOGETHER TO PRODUCE A FOOD ENVIRONMENT AND THE FOOD ENVIRONMENT AROUND US DICTATES THE OPTIONS WE WILL HAVE.

YOU KNOW THE FIRST STEP I THINK IS TO EDUCATE PEOPLE, HELP THEM UNDERSTAND HOW TO MAKE HEALTHY DECISIONS ABOUT THEIR LIFE.

BUT WE ALSO NEED TO MOVE UPSTREAM AND TALK WITH POLICYMAKERS.

THERE ARE THINGS WE CAN DO TO CHANGE THE SUBSIDIES IN THE COUNTRY THAT SUBSIDIZE THINGS LIKE CORN AND SOY THAT ENDS UP LIKE PRESERVATIVES IN OUR FOOD.

THEY ARE POTENTIALLY RESTRICTIONS ON MARKETING, ESPECIALLY FOR CHILDREN.

PEOPLE TALKED ABOUT GETTING ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS OUT OF SCHOOLS, WHICH IS A GOOD IDEA.

THERE ARE THINGS WE CAN DO AT A HIGH LEVEL TO SHAPE THE ENVIRONMENT IN WHICH PEOPLE CAN MAKE HEALTHIER DECISIONS FOR THEMSELVES.

>> WE ARE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION AS RFK JUNIOR HAS BEEN PICKED TO BE THE SECRETARY OF THE HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES.

ONE THING THAT WE HEARD BEFORE AND DURING HIS CONFIRMATION IS THAT THERE WAS SOME BIPARTISAN INTEREST IN SOMETHINGS HE IS TALKING ABOUT, IN TERMS OF ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS OUT OF SCHOOL LUNCHES AND SO FORTH.

THERE A LOT OF OTHER CONTRIBUTION ROLE VIEWPOINTS HE HAS.

I WONDER WHETHER OR NOT THIS ADMINISTRATION OR ANY ADMINISTRATION HAS A CHANCE AT TRYING TO DECREASE THIS, GIVEN THAT MOST OF THE COMPANIES THAT ARE MAKING THE ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS ARE ALSO VERY ACTIVE IN LOBBYING FOR THEIR INTERESTS.

>> SUCH A GOOD POINT.

ONE THING THAT IS IMPORTANT ABOUT THIS CONVERSATION IS THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT AND IT IS ON A MAP NOW IN A WAY THAT IT WAS NOT A FEW YEARS AGO.

PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT CHRONIC DISEASE AND OBESITY, BUT AS YOU MENTIONED THERE IS MOVEMENT BEHIND THE IDEA OF ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS.

BUT MORE GENERALLY TRYING TO REDUCE CHRONIC DISEASES IN THIS COUNTRY.

WHERE WE CAN MAKE COMMON CAUSE ACROSS THE AISLE WE SHOULD DEFINITELY PURSUE THOSE OPTIONS.

YOU KNOW IT IS HARD TO SAY HOW MUCH PROGRESS WE WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE WITHOUT HAVING VERY SPECIFIC PROPOSALS FOR WHAT WE ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO DO.

THE IDEA THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF GOVERNMENT NOW CONCERNED AND TALKING ABOUT THIS IN A PASSIONATE WAY, BODE WELL FOR THE POTENTIAL TO MAKE PROGRESS ON THE ISSUE.

>> WHAT OF THE COUNTER ARGUMENTS?

WHAT IF YOU HEARD FROM THE FOOD COMPANIES?

AND KIND OF SLOWING THIS SYSTEM DOWN.

CLEARLY THEY ARE MOTIVATED BY SELLING MORE OF WHAT YOU ARE BUYING.

AND MAKING MORE PROFITS.

BUT WHAT DO THEY SAY DOES NOT NEED TO BE CHANGED, IS IT ABOUT INDIVIDUAL RESPONSIBILITY?

LOOK, I DO NOT CONTROL WHAT YOU PUT IN YOUR MOUTH.

>> AS YOU ARE HINTING, EATING LESS IS BAD FOR BUSINESS.

THE BUSINESSES WANT YOU TO EAT MORE, CONSUME MORE CALORIES, BUY MORE CHIPS AND JUNKFOOD.

WHATEVER IT MIGHT BE.

SO I THINK THERE IS A COUPLE THINGS TO THINK ABOUT.

NOT JUST FOOD COMPANIES BUT THERE ARE LEGITIMATE CONCERNS AMONG RESEARCHERS THAT ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS IS AN INCREDIBLY BROAD CATEGORY.

IT COVERS WHOLE GRAIN, BREADS AND YOGURTS, ALL THE WAY TO SUGAR BEVERAGES AND PROCESSED MEATS.

I THINK ONE STEP THAT WE ARE TO DO IS TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WITHIN THIS HUGE CONSORTIUM OF FOODS IS THE MOST HARMFUL.

I THINK WITH THE RESEARCH HAS SHOWN IS THAT IF I HAVE TO LIMIT ANYTHING IT WOULD BE SUGAR SWEETENED BEVERAGES AND PROCESSED MEATS.

THOSE TWO THINGS PROBABLY HAVE THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF EVIDENCE REGARDING HARMFUL EFFECTS ON THE HUMAN BODY.

I THINK IT'S A GOOD PLACE TO START IN TERMS OF EDUCATING PEOPLE ABOUT IT AND ALSO NUDGING FOOD COMPANIES AWAY FROM THOSE TYPES OF PRODUCTS.

THE FOOD COMPANIES ARE GOING TO TRY TO SELL AS MUCH FOOD AS THEY CAN.

WE NEED TO DO IS TRY TO SHAPE DEMAND FOR SOME OF THESE THINGS.

SOME OF THAT WILL HAPPEN THROUGH EDUCATION.

SOME WE ARE ALREADY SEEING THROUGH GLP-1 DRUGS AND OLYMPIC.

REFERENCES ARE STARTING TO CHANGE AND OVER TIME IT COULD TURN THE FOOD SYSTEM INTO A DIFFERENT DIRECTION THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL FOR EVERYONE.

>> DO YOU SEE THAT IN YOUR PRACTICE OR ANECDOTALLY?

I GUESS THERE IS PROBABLY DATA OUT THERE.

THE ENTIRE FOOD INDUSTRY CATERING TO ALL OF US.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THE DRUGS HAVE BEEN INCREDIBLY EFFECTIVE FOR SO MANY PEOPLE.

INCLUDING A LOT OF MY PATIENTS.

I HAVE SEEN PEOPLE STRUGGLING ALL THEIR LIFE AND TRY ONE DIET AFTER ANOTHER AND TRY TO LOSE WEIGHT.

THEY ARE NOW ABLE TO REALLY LOSE WEIGHT AND KEEP IT OFF IN A WAY THEY WERE NEVER ABLE TO DO.

IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT WEIGHT.

THESE THINGS HAVE HELPFUL BENEFITS FOR CARDIOVASCULAR HEALTH, LIMBER HEALTH, KIDNEY DISEASE, WE HAVE SEEN SUGGESTIONS THEY MAY HELP WITH THINGS LIKE ADDICTIVE BEHAVIORS.

I THINK THESE ARE REALLY IMPORTANT DRUGS.

THERE IS ALSO MORE GENERAL, AS YOU HAVE HINTED AT, THE POTENTIAL TO HAVE A MORE GENERAL EFFECT WERE PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT TAKING THE DRUGS, THERE COULD BE IN DIRECT POSITIVE EFFECTS AS COMPANIES, WHETHER ALCOHOL OR TOBACCO COMPANIES, THE FOOD INDUSTRY, THEY CHANGE AND REFORM WITH THE PRODUCTS.

BECAUSE THE DEMAND THAT USED TO BE THERE IS NO LONGER THERE IN THE SAME WAY.

>> OTHER ANY COUNTRIES IN THE PLANET DURING THIS WELL OR BETTER?

YOU OFTEN SEE COMPARISONS TO EUROPE, THAT, MYSELF INCLUDED, WHEN WE TRAVEL OVERSEAS, YOU FEEL THAT THE FRIES TASTE DIFFERENT AT A McDONALD'S.

IN LONDON.

THAN THEY DO AT A McDONALD'S HERE.

>> THERE ARE.

A LOT OF COUNTRIES IN EUROPE DO NOT HAVE THE LEVEL OF ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS THAT WE HAVE IN THE AMERICAN DIET.

IF YOU LOOK AT CERTAIN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES IT MIGHT BE HALF AS MUCH OR A THIRD AS MUCH IN TERMS OF THE OVERALL FOOD SUPPLY THAT IS ULTRA PROCESSED.

A LOT OF THIS MOVEMENT GREW OUT OF SOUTH AMERICA, BRAZIL, SURROUNDING COUNTRIES.

THOSE COUNTRIES HAVE TAKEN MORE AGGRESSIVE APPROACHES TO THE ULTRA PROCESSED FOODS.

WITH SOME COMPANIES LIMITING INCLUDING TAXES.

THERE ARE THESE POLICY LEVELERS AT THE POLICYMAKER DISPOSALS.

IT DEPENDS ON HOW AGGRESSIVE THEY WANT TO BE.

PUTTING THE EVIDENCE-BASED FOR SOME CHANGES WILL BE IMPORTANT.

STRONGER EVIDENCE THAT WE HAVE AND THE MORE FORTHRIGHT WE CAN BE ABOUT THE POLICY RECOMMENDATIONS, BUT FOR NOW I THINK MOVING FORWARD WITH HELPING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE POTENTIAL RISKS OF THESE PRODUCTS IS THE BEST FIRST STEP.

>> SO HOW DID WE KIND OF GET SMARTER AND THAT WAY.

WHERE WE MIGHT BE SEEING, I GUESS IN THIS CASE, THIS INFORMATION, IT IS ACTIVELY AND INTENTIONALLY TRYING TO DISS INFORM US SO WE MAKE A CERTAIN PURCHASE.

HOW DO WE NAVIGATE THIS?

HOW TO BECOME LITERATE ENOUGH?

SO THEN WE CAN TELL WHAT IS SOMETHING WE SHOULD AVOID FROM NOT.

>> I THINK HELPING PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING IN THEIR MOUTH, WHAT IS ON THEIR PLATE, WHERE THEIR FOOD IS COMING FROM, THAT IS SO IMPORTANT.

EMPOWERING THEM TO MAKE DECISIONS THAT ARE GOING TO BE GOOD FOR THEIR LONG-TERM HEALTH I THINK IS GOING TO BE IMPORTANT.

WHAT IS SO EXCITING I THINK ABOUT THE POTENTIAL MOVEMENT IS THAT IT IS BIPARTISAN.

MANY OF THE THINGS THAT ARE GOING ON IN THE COUNTRY HAVE BEEN POLITICIZED.

THERE IS REAL DIVISION AROUND PUBLIC HEALTH.

THIS AREA IS WERE THE LEFT, THE RIGHT, THE CENTER, THEY AGREE CHRONIC DISEASE IS A BIG PROBLEM.

OUR DIET IS CONTRIBUTING IN A SUBSTANTIAL WAY TO THE RATES OF CHRONIC DISEASE AND PEOPLE ARE MOTIVATED TO MAKE A CHANGE.

I THINK IT IS A PLACE WHERE THERE IS POTENTIAL TO MAKE A PROGRESS.

>> WHAT IS A RULE THAT YOU GO BY IN YOUR HOUSEHOLD?

YOU ARE AN AVERAGE FAMILY AND YOU HAVE KIDS.

YOU'VE GOT A BUSY SCHEDULE.

YOU KNOW, YOU WROTE THAT IRONICALLY THAT WHEN YOU ARE A RESIDENT YOU WERE COUNSELING PEOPLE ON DIABETES AND EATING BETTER.

YET YOU ARE TAKING PROCESSED FOODS IN THE HOSPITAL CAFETERIA.

>> I SHOULD BE ADDICTED TO SHARE HOW -- I SHARED THAT ANECDOTE TO SHOW YOU HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO EAT HEALTHIER.

HERE I AM, IT IS DIFFICULT FOR SOMEONE WITH KNOWLEDGE AND EXPERIENCE TO FIND FOOD THAT IS CONSISTENTLY HEALTHY.

IN OUR HOUSE WE TRY OUR BEST TO COOK EVERY EVENING.

WERE TO PREPARE FOOD AT THE BEGINNING OF THE WEEK I NEED TO OVER THE COURSE OF THE WEEK.

OF COURSE WE ORDER IN AND GIVE INTO FRIES AND PIZZA FROM TIME TO TIME.

BUT AGAIN THE MOST IMPORTANT THING I WANT TO TRY TO INSTILL IN MY FAMILY AND MY CHILDREN IS THAT IF YOU CAN PREPARE YOUR OWN FOOD IT WILL ALMOST BE HEALTHIER THAN ANYTHING YOU BY ANY RESTAURANT OR AT A FAST FOOD RESTAURANT.

>> DOCTOR, A CONTROLLING WRITER TO THE NEW YORKER, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR NOW.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.