>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE'S WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> THEY CAN DISCUSS EVERYTHING THEY WANT BUT NOT ABOUT UKRAINE WITHOUT US.

>> THE U.S. AND RUSSIA KICKED OFF UKRAINE PEACE TALKS WITH NEITHER UKRAINE NOR EUROPE AT THE TABLE.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR SPEAKS WITH PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY ABOUT NAVIGATING THE NEW TRUMP WORLD ORDER.

>>> AND, DEMOCRATIC SENATOR CHRIS JOINS ME WITH HIS VIEW ON THREE DAYS IN MUNICH.

>>> THEN -- >> FOR EUROPEANS, MY ADVICE IS GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER, SEE WHAT YOU CAN DO ON THE EUROPEAN SIDE THAT YOU CHECK INTO THIS DEBATE.

>> NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL MARK RUTTE CALLS FOR EUROPE TO STEP UP ON UKRAINE.

>>> WHAT IS THE EQUILIBRIUM, HOW MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE CAN BE CAPPED SO WE CAN CONTINUE TO SAVE TENS OF MILLIONS OF LIVES?

>> SPEAKING WITH WALTER ISAACSON, BILL GATES MAKES THE CASE FOR PROTECTING AMERICAN AID AROUND THE WORLD.

>>> AMANPOUR & CO IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

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AND, BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

EUROPE, UKRAINE, AND MUCH OF THE WORLD IS REELING AFTER SENIOR AMERICAN OFFICIALS SENT A CLEAR MESSAGE AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE.

EUROPEAN SECURITY IS NO LONGER AN AMERICAN PRIORITY.

AMERICA'S NEW DIRECTION IS ALREADY UNDERWAY AS A HIGH- LEVEL RUSSIAN AND AMERICAN TEAMS ARRIVED IN SAUDI ARABIA THIS WEEK FOR BILATERAL TALKS ON ENDING THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

NOTABLY ABSENT?

UKRAINE ITSELF.

PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY WILL VISIT SAUDI ARABIA THIS WEEK BUT HE IS NOT PART OF THE NEGOTIATION.

>> Translator: UKRAINE PERCEIVES ANY NEGOTIATIONS ABOUT UKRAINE WITHOUT UKRAINE AS THOSE WITH NO RESULTS.

WE CANNOT RECOGNIZE ANYTHING OR ANY AGREEMENTS WITHOUT US.

>> ALSO NOT INVITED, EUROPE.

LEADERS THERE PULL TOGETHER AN EMERGENCY MEETING IN PARIS TODAY, FACING THE POSSIBILITY THEY WILL HAVE TO IMPLEMENT A UKRAINE PEACE DEAL DESPITE HAVING NO SAY.

>>> MUNICH WAS GROUND ZERO FOR THIS WEEKEND'S WORLD CHANGING EVENTS.

UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY WAS KEYNOTE SPEAKER AT THE SECURITY CONFERENCE.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR SPOKE WITH HIM ABOUT HIS PLANS TO SPEAK FOR UKRAINE, EVEN AS AMERICA AND RUSSIA TRY TO KEEP HIM AWAY FROM THE TABLE.

>> YOU, AFTER YOUR PHONE CALL WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THAT YOU DID NOT HEAR ENOUGH DETAIL TO MAKE THIS A PEACE PLAN.

CAN YOU JUST ELABORATE WHAT YOU MEANT BY THAT?

>>, I SPEAK UKRAINIAN?

>> NO.

>> OKAY.

DON'T PRESSURE ON ME.

WE HAD A LONG CONVERSATION WITH THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, NOT THE FIRST AND NOT THE LAST, I AM SURE.

REALLY BETWEEN US.

I'M NOT SURE BY PHONE WE CAN MANAGE THE FULL PLAN OR SECURITY GUARANTEES WITH ALL THE DETAILS BECAUSE YOU KNOW THE DEVIL IS IN THE DETAILS.

AND WE KNOW WHERE IS THIS DEVIL IN WHAT COUNTRY NOW.

THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TO STOP HIM, TO STOP VLADIMIR PUTIN AND IT IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR ME.

THAT IS WHY IN THE ATMOSPHERE OF OUR DISCUSSION, IT IS GOOD.

REALLY, IT IS ALWAYS GOOD.

WE NEED URGENT, COMPLETE STEPS AND WE HAVE TO WORK ON IT, OUR TEAMS.

WE BEGAN THAT BUT I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO START IMMEDIATELY TO DO MORE DEEP DECISIONS.

>> WE WILL GET INTO THAT IN A MOMENT.

BUT, YOU DID ALSO HAVE A SEPARATE CONVERSATION WITH VICE PRESIDENT JD VANCE.

WE HAVE TO BRING UP THAT IN 2022, JD VANCE "I DON'T CARE WHAT HAPPENS TO UKRAINE, ONE WAY OR ANOTHER."

DO YOU FEEL HE HAS CHANGED, THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THE ACTORS YOU ARE DEALING WITH UNDERSTAND WHAT IS AT STAKE?

>> I WILL BE HONEST, WE HAVE TO WORK ON IT.

ALL OF US, NOT ONLY ME.

I AM NOT ENOUGH, REALLY.

I THINK WE HAVE TO WORK BECAUSE I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, TOGETHER IN EUROPE, THE WAR IS IN EUROPE AND AMERICA IS FAR FROM THE INVASION.

AND, I THINK THAT WE NEED TO SHARE MORE DETAILS.

BECAUSE, TO MY MIND, THERE ARE A LOT OF DIFFERENT VOICES AROUND THE NEW AMERICAN ADMINISTRATION.

I'M NOT SURE THAT ALL OF THESE VOICES ARE ON OUR SIDE.

THAT IS WHY WE HAVE TO WORK WITH THESE PEOPLE, EVEN WITH SOME EUROPEANS, AS I SAID, IF I WAS UNDERSTANDABLE, I DON'T KNOW.

>> YES YOU WERE.

IT WAS CLEAR.

>> IT WAS CLEAR BUT I WANT TO REPEAT IT, YES.

IT IS IMPORTANT, IT IS IMPORTANT FOR THEM TO BE CLEAR.

>> DO YOU WANT TO NAME NAMES, WHILE WE ARE AT IT?

>> I KNOW THE NAMES, OF COURSE.

I'M NOT SURE THAT IT IS TIME.

>> LET'S GET BACK TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.

AT A PRESS CONFERENCE -- >> YOU SAID ABOUT VIKTOR ORBAN?

OH, SORRY.

>> MR. PRESIDENT, TRUMP WAS ASKED WHETHER HE TRUSTED PUTIN AND HE SORT OF BASICALLY ENDED UP SAYING, "ON THIS, I DO."

BUT HE HAS ALSO SAID, FRANKLY, IT IS QUITE DIFFICULT TO EXTRACT WHAT ALL THE DIFFERENT ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS HAVE BEEN SENDING.

ON THE ONE HAND, POTENTIALLY THAT, YOU KNOW, MAYBE UKRAINE HAD A RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS WAR.

MAYBE UKRAINE CAN'T EVER EXPECT TO GET BACK, IT IS UNREALISTIC, ACCORDING TO THE DEFENSE SECRETARY, UKRAINE'S TERRITORY.

MAYBE UKRAINE WILL BE SAFE AND INDEPENDENT.

MAYBE IT WOULD BE PART OF RUSSIA.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT AMERICA'S POSITION IS?

>> YES.

>> WHICH IS?

>> I THINK, TO MY MIND, THEY ARE PREPARING THE ATMOSPHERE FOR THE DIALOGUE.

>> FOR THE DIALOGUE?

WHICH WILL BE?

>> FOR THE DIALOGUE BETWEEN TRUMP AND PUTIN.

AND, I THINK THIS IS, I MEAN, IT IS UP TO THEM.

BUT, THEY CAN DISCUSS EVERYTHING THEY WANT BUT NOT ABOUT UKRAINE WITHOUT US.

AND, THAT IS WHY, IN THIS CASE, THAT IS WHY, ESPECIALLY IN THIS CASE, I THINK IT IS ABLE TO BUT DANGEROUS.

THAT IS WHY I SAID THAT WE NEED TO TALK MORE WITH THE PRESIDENT AND TO TALK MORE WITH HIS PEOPLE, WITH HIS TEAMS.

WE HAD GOOD CONVERSATIONS AND I THINK THAT I OPENED SOME NEW DETAILS FOR THE VICE PRESIDENT.

THAT IS WHY I SAID THAT WE NEED, IT IS NOT A WASTE OF TIME.

IT IS REALLY THAT WE ARE AN IMPORTANT DIPLOMATIC INVESTMENT FOR THE FUTURE, A JUST AND LASTING PEACE FOR UKRAINE.

>> YOU SAID PUTIN DOESN'T WANT PEACE.

HE JUST SET IT.

WHAT IS THE DIALOGUE AND HAVE TO CONVINCED THE AMERICANS THAT UKRAINE HAS TO BE AT THE TABLE AND, I GUESS THE EUROPEANS HAVE TO CONVINCE THEM?

>> ON ALL THE LEVELS, ON ALL THE LEVELS, WE DIRECTLY, YES, VERY DIRECTLY SEND THESE MESSAGES THAT WE HAVE TO PREPARE SECURITY GUARANTEES AS A MAIN PART OF STOPPING PUTIN AND STOPPING THIS WAR.

AND, VERY IMPORTANT, ESSENTIAL AND WE SAY THAT IT CAN'T BE WITHOUT US AND THAT IS WHY, I DON'T KNOW, IF WE DON'T HAVE, FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, IF WE DON'T HAVE A PLAN, IT MEANS FOR ME THAT THE UNITED STATES DOESN'T HAVE BECAUSE IF THEY HAVE SOMETHING, IT IS NOT ABOUT US.

WE HAVE TO MAKE A PLAN WITH YOU, I SAID TO THE PRESIDENT, IT WAS THE DAY WHEN HE HAD PHONE CALLS WITH PUTIN AND WITH ME.

AND, FIRST WITH HIM, AND THEN WITH US.

>> HOW DID THAT SIT WITH YOU?

>> NO, I SAID THAT -- >> FIRST WITH PUTIN AND THEN WITH YOU?

>> I AM NOT HAPPY.

YES, BUT I THINK THAT MORE DANGEROUS IF THE FIRST MEETING WILL BE WITH PUTIN AND THEN WITH UKRAINE.

AND, THERE ARE THINGS I SHARED WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, THAT FIRST OF ALL, WE HAVE TO HAVE A COMMON VIEW.

I SAID THAT AT THE TABLE, WE NEED EUROPE.

IT IS VERY IMPORTANT FOR US.

WE ARE EUROPE.

WE ARE IN EUROPE.

WE SEE OUR FUTURE ONLY IN THE EU, LIKE A MEMBER STATE.

THAT IS WHY IT IS VERY IMPORTANT AND EUROPE HELPED US A LOT.

WHEN I SPEAK, REALLY, WHEN I SPEAK WITH DIFFERENT OFFICIALS OF THE UNITED STATES OF THE NEW ADMINISTRATION AND I AM THANKFUL FOR THEM THAT THEY DIDN'T FREEZE THE MILITARY SUPPORT, IT IS VERY IMPORTANT, AND I AM VERY THANKFUL, BUT WHEN WE SPEAK, I REALLY UNDERSTAND WHAT PART OF THE SUPPORT DID AMERICA GIVE DURING THESE THREE YEARS AND WHAT HUGE SUPPORT WAS MADE BY EUROPE.

AND, IT IS IMPORTANT.

>> DID YOU GET A COMMITMENT FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT YOU WOULD MEET WITH HIM FIRST?

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS HE WILL MEET PUTIN IN SAUDI ARABIA MAY BE SOON.

HAS HE SAID HE WILL MEET YOU?

>> HE SAID TO ME THAT WE HAVE TO MEET.

I SAID TO HIM, ALSO, WE HAVE TO MEET.

I THINK I SAID FIRST, WE HAVE TO MEET FIRST.

BUT, WE UNDERSTOOD EACH OTHER BECOMES I DIDN'T SAY ABOUT IT ONCE.

>> YOU SAID IT SEVERAL TIMES.

>> YES, THAT IS WHY I THINK WE UNDERSTOOD EACH OTHER AND IT IS VERY IMPORTANT.

IF WE CAN REPEAT THE WORDS EACH DAY THAT WE HAVE LOSSES AND IF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OR OTHER LEADERS REPEAT THESE WORDS, UKRAINE HAS LOSSES, WE HAVE TO STOP THE WAR, IT MEANS THAT WE HAVE URGENTLY TO MEET TOGETHER IF WE REALLY WANT TO STOP IT.

TO MEET WITH CONCRETE DATES AND PLANS.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT LOSSES, OBVIOUSLY HEAVY LOSSES.

HE MENTIONED RUSSIA'S HEAVY LOSSES AS WELL.

YOU WERE TALKING TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND YOU KNOW THAT LAST YEAR, AROUND THIS TIME LAST YEAR, IT WAS PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS ALLIES IN CONGRESS THAT DELAYED FOR SEVEN MONTHS OF THE AID THAT WAS MEANT TO COME TO UKRAINE.

WHEN I SPOKE TO YOUR COMMANDER IN UKRAINE JUST A FEW MONTH AGO, HE SAID THE DELAY IN AID DID COST LIVES, COST TERRITORY AND COST A LOT OF STRATEGIC EFFORT IN UKRAINE.

DID YOU MENTION THAT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP?

>> NO.

>> I SEE.

>> WE SPOKE ABOUT DELAYING AND THE DECISION OF THE CONGRESS AND THE POSITIVE DECISION.

IT WAS IN SEPTEMBER WHEN WE HAD A MEETING DURING HIS ELECTION OR BEFORE THE ELECTION, I DON'T, BEFORE, A LITTLE BIT BEFORE.

IT WAS VERY IMPORTANT, THE DECISION.

I WAS THANKFUL FOR BIPARTISAN SUPPORT AND ALSO MICAH JOHNSON, THAT HE MADE A POSITIVE DECISION, AND ALSO TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.

IF HE WOULDN'T BE SUPPORTIVE, THEY COULDN'T VOTE THIS DECISION.

REALLY, THE HELP FOR WHICH WE NEEDED VERY MUCH STILL IS GOING.

I MEAN, NOT EVERYTHING CAME.

YOU UNDERSTAND?

IT IS VERY SLOW AND I THINK THAT GENERAL SYRSKYI WAS RIGHT THAT ONE OF THE REASONS WHY WE LOST, I DON'T WANT TO SPEAK ABOUT BUT I AM READY, WE LOST ABOUT 4000 SQUARE KILOMETERS.

OF COURSE, IF THE HOPE COULD COME, YOU KNOW, VERY QUICKLY, EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS THAT LOSSES WOULD -- >> I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

>> WE COULD BE IN MORE GOOD CONDITIONS.

>> AND PRECISELY BECAUSE OF WHERE YOU WOULD NEED TO BE TO HAVE A NEGOTIATION TO END THE WAR.

THAT IS WHY I ASK YOU THIS.

YOU TALKED ABOUT SECURITY GUARANTEES.

WHAT DETAILS DO YOU THINK ABOUT, WHAT WOULD BE A SECURITY GUARANTEE, APART FROM JOINING NATO RIGHT NOW?

WHAT WOULD BE A SECURITY GUARANTEE IN ANY CEASE-FIRE OR TO FREEZE OR MONITOR ANY LINE OF CONTACT, WHICH IS SOME 1300 KILOMETERS LONG?

ALREADY, DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH SAID THAT THERE WOULD BE NO U.S.

TROOPS.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IT LOOKS LIKE?

>> WERE STRONG SANCTIONS.

NOT IF THEY WILL INNOVATE AGAIN, JUST MORE STRONG SANCTIONS AT THE VERY BEGINNING.

THEN, LIKE YOU SAID, REALLY DIFFICULT TO HOARD THE -- HOLD THE BORDER FOR UKRAINIAN SOLDIERS.

THAT IS WHY WE NEED THE ARMY MORE, IF WE ARE NOT IN NATO.

NEEDLE HAS TO BE IN UKRAINE.

WE WILL NEED THE ARMY THAT IS COMPARABLE WITH THE SOLDIERS OF RUSSIA.

IT IS 1.5 MILLION SOLDIERS.

SO, WE NEED MONEY FOR THIS, A PACKAGE OF MONEY, REAL MONEY.

AND, IT IS A DEFICIT EVEN TODAY.

IT IS 40 BILLION PER YEAR.

THIS MONEY AND THEN WEAPONS AND A PACKAGE OF MUSCLES THAT WAS WRITTEN IN THE VICTORY PLAN, THE PACKAGE THAT WE WILL NOT USE BUT IT HAS TO STAND ON OUR TERRITORY.

IF VLADIMIR PUTIN WILL BEGIN A NEW INVASION, WE WILL USE IT.

I THINK THESE ISSUES ARE VERY IMPORTANT.

THIS IS A PRIORITY.

>> AND FOREIGN TROOPS, EUROPEAN TRIPS?

>> WE ARE OPEN FOR THIS INITIATIVE.

WE UNDERSTAND, I MEAN, MOSTLY WE UNDERSTAND THE DETAILS BUT WE NEED TO DISCUSS THE DETAILS WITH LEADERS.

I DON'T WANT TO BE VERY LOUD ABOUT IT BUT WE UNDERSTAND THAT WE NEED IT.

IT WILL HELP US.

>> DO YOU BELIEVE IT WILL BE A YEAR OF PEACE AND DO YOU BELIEVE PUTIN HAS ANY INTENTION OF ALLOWING AN INDEPENDENT, SOVEREIGN UKRAINE?

>> WE REALLY WANT PEACE AND WE WILL WORK ON IT.

WE WILL PREPARE SECURITY GUARANTEES, LIKE WE SEE, WE WILL SHARE IT WITH THE UNITED STATES AND I HOPE THEY WILL SHARE THEIR VIEW.

AS I SAID, A COMMON VIEW FOR ME IS IMPORTANT TO HEAR ALL OUR PARTNERS IN EUROPE WHO HELPED US.

IN THE EU AS WELL BECAUSE THE UK, OUR PARTNERS, THEY ARE BIG PARTNERS AND THAT IS WHY IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO PREPARE ALL OF THESE THINGS, TO SHARE IT WITH THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, TO FIND TIME FOR THIS TO OUR COMMON MEETINGS, TO MAKE THIS COMMENT PLAN, THEN TO PUT IT ON THE TABLE FOR PUTIN AND DO EVERYTHING.

PRESIDENT TRUMP THINKS HE IS STRONG, THESE ARE THINGS HE CAN DO, SANCTIONS AND PRESSURE IN ANY WAY THAT HE WANTS.

AFTER THAT, TO STOP THIS WAR THIS YEAR, 2025.

MAKE PEACE IN UKRAINE.

THIS IS OUR PLAN.

THAT IS WHAT WE REALLY WANT AND THAT IS WHAT WE WILL TRY TO DO.

>> DID YOU TELL, AS WAS REPORTED, PRESIDENT TRUMP, THAT PUTIN IS ONLY DOING THIS AND AGREEING TO TALKS BECAUSE HE IS AFRAID OF TRUMP, DID YOU TELL HIM THAT?

>> YES.

I TOLD THAT PUTIN IS AFRAID OF HIM.

YES.

AND, HE HEARD ME.

AND NOW PUTIN KNOWS.

>> I SHOULDN'T BE LAUGHING.

BUT, YOU DO MAKE ME SMILE.

>> WE WANT PEACE.

WE HAVE TO LIVE AND WE HAVE TO SMILE WHEN WE HAVE TIME, OF COURSE.

>> THAT IS TRUE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> DEMOCRATIC SENATOR CHRIS WAS AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE.

HE JOINS ME FROM LONDON WITH HIS TAKE ON WHERE ALL OF THIS IS HEADED.

SENATOR, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

JUST IN TERMS OF THE MOOD AT THIS CONFERENCE THIS YEAR, I HAVE HEARD FROM THOSE WHO HAVE ATTENDED MANY MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE IS THAT THIS IS THE MOST CONTENTIOUS IN THEIR MEMORY AND PERHAPS GOING BACK EVEN DECADES, AND THE TENSION STEMMING NOT FROM MOSCOW, NECESSARILY THIS TIME, BUT FROM WASHINGTON.

I'M JUST WONDERING YOUR IMPRESSION AND GIVE US A SENSE OF SOME OF THE CONVERSATIONS AND TAKEAWAYS THAT YOU'VE HAD WITH THOSE WHO WERE THERE.

>> WELL, BIANNA, THANK YOU FOR THE CHANCE TO BE ON.

I WAS THERE WITH A LARGE BIPARTISAN DELEGATION FROM THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE AND WE MET WITH A WIDE RANGE OF EUROPEAN LEADERS, AMERICAN GENERALS, COMMENTATORS, AND OF PARTNERS FROM AROUND THE WORLD, HAD SUSTAINED, DEFENSE MINISTERS, FOREIGN MINISTERS.

YOU ARE RIGHT THAT THIS WAS WIDELY VIEWED AS A DIVISIVE AND CONTENTIOUS MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE, PARTLY BECAUSE OF VICE PRESIDENT OF JD VANCE, PARTLY BECAUSE OF THE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH'S REMARKS IN BRUSSELS A FEW DAYS BEFORE THE CONFERENCE AND WHAT THE TWO OF THEM SEEM TO HAVE LAID OUT IN THOSE TWO SETS OF REMARKS WAS A SURRENDER PLAN FOR UKRAINE.

TO ESSENTIALLY GIVE UP ALL OF THE GAINS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE BY EUROPE, CONTRIBUTING MASSIVELY TO UKRAINE'S DEFENSE, BY BRIEF UKRAINIAN FACTORS, WHO HAVE STOOD UP TO RUSSIAN AGGRESSION, AND BY AMERICAN INVESTMENT IN UKRAINE'S DEFENSE.

MY HOPE IS THAT, IN THE DAYS AFTER THE MUNICH CONFERENCE, THAT AS CONVERSATIONS BEGIN BETWEEN REPRESENTATIVES OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND REPRESENTATIVES FROM MOSCOW, THAT THEY WILL REFLECT ON THE CORE PRINCIPLE THAT TRUMP WENT ON AND FRANKLY PRESIDENT REAGAN WAS FAMOUS FOR, WHICH WAS PEACE THROUGH STRENGTH, NOT CHAOS OR SURRENDER THROUGH WEAKNESS.

THERE HAS BEEN SOME EFFORT TO WALK BACK SOME OF WHAT SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH SAID IN BRUSSELS ABOUT EUROPEAN SECURITY AND UKRAINE'S SECURITY NOT BEING A CENTRAL CONCERN OF THE UNITED STATES AND THERE BEING NO AMERICAN GUARANTEE FOR ANY UKRAINIAN SECURITY.

THAT HAS BEEN MODIFIED AND WE DISCUSSED.

MY HOPE IS THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WILL SEE THAT THE ONLY WAY TO NEGOTIATE FOR A PEACE AGREEMENT IN UKRAINE IS WITH UKRAINE AT THE TABLE, WITH OUR EUROPEAN PARTNERS, WHO HAVE CONTRIBUTED MORE THAN WE HAVE IN THE MILITARY EQUIPMENT, ECONOMIC SUPPORT, AND HUMANITARIAN SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE THEN WE HAVE, AND TO MAKE IT CLEAR TO PUTIN THAT TRUMP IS READY TO GIVE MORE SUPPORT, TO IMPOSE TOUGHER SANCTIONS, AND TO STAND UP FOR UKRAINE.

IF HE DOES THAT, I THINK PUTIN WILL BACK DOWN AND WE MIGHT WELL BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE A JUST AND DURABLE PEACE FOR UKRAINE.

>> I'M SENSING A LOT OF HOPE.

I JUST WONDER REALITY WINDS, AND GIVEN WHAT WE'VE HEARD IN SORT OF THE WALKING BACK AND CONFUSION AND THE EARLY OUTLINES AND FRAMEWORKS OF WHAT A DEAL MAY LOOK LIKE FROM THE STANDPOINT OF THE U.S., RESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY MADE IT CLEAR IN THE CONVERSATION WITH CHRISTIANE THAT FROM HIS CONVERSATION WITH DONALD TRUMP, HE DIDN'T SEE THE PARAMETERS OF A SIGNIFICANT DEAL WORTHY OF GOING TO THE TABLE AND DISCUSSING BOTH WITH HIM AND VLADIMIR PUTIN.

NOW, YOU HAVE U.S.

REPRESENTATIVES MEETING IN SAUDI ARABIA THIS WEEK WITH RUSSIAN REPRESENTATIVES, UKRAINE NOT A PARTICIPANT IN THOSE CONVERSATIONS.

WHAT IS YOUR CONCERN ABOUT THE OUTCOME OF THIS EARLY STAGE IN THESE CONVERSATIONS?

BECAUSE, I'M ASKING SPECIFICALLY, GIVEN THAT THERE ARE REPORTS -- I SPOKE WITH THE ENDOWMENT CENTER, WHO HAS MANY CONTACTS IN MOSCOW, AND SAID THAT HE WOULD NOT BE SURPRISED IF A MEETING BETWEEN TRUMP AND PUTIN HAPPENS EVEN S&S BY THE END OF THIS MONTH.

>> A MEETING BETWEEN TRUMP AND PUTIN WITHOUT UKRAINE AND OUR EUROPEAN PARTNERS AND ALLIES AND MEANING THAT SKETCHES OUT OR BEGINS TO EXPLORE A PEACE DEAL WHERE UKRAINE IS ABANDONED AND BETRAYED WOULD BE DISASTROUS FOR THE UNITED STATES.

IT IS MY HOPE THAT MY REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC COLLEAGUES IN THE SENATE WILL STAND UP AND REJECT ANY SUCH EFFORT.

SO MUCH HAS BEEN PUT INTO THIS FIGHT, SO MUCH SACRIFICE BY UKRAINIANS, SO MUCH INVESTMENT BY EUROPEANS AND AMERICANS, AND IT WILL TEACH THE WORLD THAT THE UNITED STATES IS NOT A RELIABLE PARTNER.

FOR US TO ABANDONED AND TRAIN UKRAINE AFTER THREE YEARS OF HARD FIGHTING AGAINST RUSSIAN AGGRESSION WOULD BE A TRAGEDY ON A MASSIVE SCALE AND I THINK IT WOULD MARK TRUMP'S ADMINISTRATION AS A LOSER, AS A LOSER THAT GAVE UP ON WHAT IS, IN SOME WAYS, THE MOST IMPORTANT THING AMERICA HAS DONE FOR DECADES ON THE WORLD STAGE, WHICH IS TO STAND ALONGSIDE OUR PARTNER DEMOCRACIES IN THE FACE OF AGGRESSION.

>> GIVEN THE PAST RELATIONS BETWEEN DONALD TRUMP AND VLADIMIR PUTIN, THEIR PREVIOUS SUMMIT, WHAT DONALD TRUMP SAYS WHEN HE ESPOUSES SOME OF PUTIN'S FAVORITE TALKING POINTS AFTER THEIR PHONE CONVERSATIONS, DO YOU HAVE ANY REASON TO BELIEVE DONALD TRUMP WILL PRESENT STRENGTH THROUGH PEACE IN THE CONVERSATIONS THAT HE'S GOING TO BE HAVING AND THE DEMAND HE'S GOING TO BE MAKING OF HIM, DO YOU EXPECT HIM TO MAKE ANY DEMANDS AT ALL?

>> I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW, BIANNA.

I KNOW THE FOLKS THAT WILL BE ADVISING HIM, LIKE MIKE WATTS, THE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR, AND SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO, ARE CLEAR THAT THE BEST WAY TO ACHIEVE PEACE IN UKRAINE IS BY BEING STRONG.

THAT IS SOMETHING REAGAN REPUBLICANS HAVE PREACHED FOR DECADES.

AND, IT WOULD BE AN ABDICATION OF THAT LONG TRADITION, AND OF THE STRONG SUPPORT UKRAINE HAS ENJOYED AMONG SOME REPUBLICANS IN THE SENATE.

THE CHAIRMAN OF THE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE, THE MAJORITY LEADER, AND THE LAST CONGRESS, REPUBLICANS WERE CRITICAL OF PRESIDENT BIDEN FOR NOT DELIVERING MORE MILITARY EQUIPMENT AND MORE SUPPORT EARLIER FOR UKRAINE IN THEIR FIGHT AGAINST RUSSIA.

MY HOPE IS THAT THEY WILL CONTINUE WITH THAT POSITION AND THAT THEY WILL KEEP PUSHING PRESIDENT TRUMP TO NOT GIVE UP ON UKRAINE, THE CAUSE OF FRANKLY, THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING.

THIS WILL SEND A STRONG SIGNAL TO XI JINPING IN CHINA, THAT TAIWAN IS NEXT ON THE AGENDA.

TO THE LEADERS OF NORTH KOREA AND OF IRAN, THAT THEIR PARTNERSHIP WITH RUSSIA IN AGGRESSION IN UKRAINE WILL BE REWARDED.

IT WILL SEND A TERRIBLE SIGNAL THAT WILL ABANDON DETERMINES AND ENCOURAGE THOSE WHO ARE AGGRESSORS ON THE WORLD STAGE.

>> NOT TO MENTION THAT EUROPE HAS BEEN LEFT OUT ENTIRELY THROUGH THIS PROCESS.

THE U.S. OFFICIAL STATING THE BURDEN OF THIS WATERFALL ON EUROPEAN SHOULDERS AND THEY HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY EXCISED FROM THIS CONVERSATION AT THIS POINT.

LET ME ALSO ASK YOU ABOUT THE WAR IN GAZA.

WE SAW SECRETARY MARCO RUBIO STANDING SIDE-BY-SIDE WITH PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU OVER THE WEEKEND, IN LOCKSTEP, SAYING THEY SHARE A COMMON GOAL OF DEFEATING HAMAS AND THE U.S., ONCE AGAIN, SENDING 2000 POUND BOMBS THAT HAVE BEEN FROZEN BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU USING SOME OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S WORDS, THAT THE GATES OF "TRAN35 WILL OPEN UP," IF HAMAS DOESN'T RELEASE THE HOSTAGES, REITERATING HIS THAT THERE IS NO DAY AFTER PLAN BUT THE DAY AFTER WILL NOT CONSIST OF LEADERSHIP OF HAMAS OR THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY.

WE ARE JUST GETTING HEADLINES FROM SOME OF YOUR COLLEAGUES THAT I WOULD LIKE FOR YOU TO WEIGH IN ON, WHO ARE ON A BIPARTISAN CODEL RIGHT NOW.

SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM, THIS RELATES TO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PLAN TO HAVE THE U.S. CONTROL GAZA AFTER THE WAR, HE SAID, "THERE IS VERY LITTLE APPETITE IN THE U.S. SENATE FOR THE U.S. TO TAKE OVER GAZA IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM."

THAT IS INTERESTING TO HEAR.

PERHAPS EVEN MORE INTERESTING COMES FROM DEMOCRATIC SENATOR RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, WHO SAID THAT KING ABDULLAH HAD CONVINCED HIM TO PLAN THE ARAB STATES WILL PRESENT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP IS REALISTIC AND COULD BE A GAME CHANGER FOR THE REGION.

DO YOU KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR PLAN?

>> A GROUP OF US MET WITH KING ABDULLAH IN WASHINGTON LAST WEEK .

AND, IT IS MY HOPE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S IS OUR PLAN FOR THE UNITED STATES TO TAKE OVER AND REDEVELOP GAZA WILL BE SET ASIDE AND THAT A MEASURED AND THOUGHTFUL PLAN WILL BE PRESENTED AND ACCEPTED FROM LEADERS IN THE REGION, FROM KING ABDULLAH OF JORDAN AND FROM EGYPT.

THE CEASE-FIRE IS HOLDING.

HOSTAGES ARE BEING RELEASED.

NONE OF US WANT HAMAS TO SUCCEED OR SURVIVE.

AND, ALL OF US WANT TO SEE A MORE PEACEFUL AND STABLE FUTURE FOR THE PALESTINIANS OF GAZA AND FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

LOOK, IT REMAINS, BIANNA, MIGHT HOPE THERE COULD STILL BE FOUND SOME WAY THAT SAUDI ARABIA RECOGNIZES ISRAEL, THAT ISRAEL ACHIEVES A PATH TO PEACE THAT REQUIRES AN IRREVERSIBLE PATH FORWARD FOR PALESTINIAN SELF- GOVERNANCE, THAT WOULD INCLUDE THE RECONSTRUCTION OF GAZA AND A SECURITY FORCE THAT WOULD PROVIDE FOR SECURITY AND STABILITY FOR ISRAEL AS WELL AS FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

THAT IS AN AMBITIOUS GOAL BUT IS ONE THAT IS SHARED BY THE BIPARTISAN DELEGATION THAT IS IN ISRAEL TODAY.

>> QUICKLY, CAN YOU TELL US IF THIS ARAB STATES PLAN THAT WAS PRESENTED TO YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES HAS A DAY AFTER PLAN OF CONTROL OF GAZA FALL INTO THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, WHICH PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU SAID WAS A DEALBREAKER IN HIS INTERVIEW OR IS IT SOME OTHER CONSORTIUM OF RULE?

>> I SHOULD NOT GET INTO THE DETAILS OF A PLAN THAT HAS NOT BEEN MADE PUBLIC YET.

BUT, CLEARLY, RESOLVING THESE TWO DIFFERENCES, BETWEEN A POSSIBLE PAN-ARAB FOR SPRINT A RECONSTITUTED, AND MODERNIZED THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, SQUARING THE CIRCLE IS ONE OF THE CHALLENGES IN FRONT OF US.

BIANNA, I WILL SAY ONE LAST THING ABOUT MUNICH.

IT IS IMPORTANT THAT MARK RUTTE, THE SECRETARY-GENERAL OF NATO, HAD SPOKEN OF STRONGLY ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES STEPPING FORWARD AND TAKING ON MORE OF THE BURDEN OF EUROPEAN SECURITY AND THAT KEIR STARMER, THE PRIME MINISTER OF GREAT BRITAIN IS SAYING THAT UK FORCES ARE READY TO STEP FORWARD AND HELP SECURE PEACE IN UKRAINE.

ALL OF THAT CAN BE ACCOMPLISHED AS LONG AS THE UNITED STATES CONTINUES TO STAND STRONG BEHIND ME TO STAND STRONG BEHIND OUR PARTNERS IN EUROPE, WHO ARE TAKING ON MORE OF THE SECURITY BURDEN, OF MAKING SURE THERE IS A PATH TOWARD PEACE IN UKRAINE.

>> FOR THE FIRST TIME IN MANY YEARS, THERE IS A QUESTION MARK SURROUNDING THAT QUESTION.

SENATOR CHRIS THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING THE SHOW.

>>> EUROPEAN COMMISSION VICE PRESIDENT OFFERED A CLEAR PERSPECTIVE ON U.S.-EUROPE RELATIONS, SPEAKING WITH CHRISTIANE IN MUNICH.

>> WE DON'T WANT TO FIGHT WITH OUR FRIENDS.

WE HAVE THREATS COMING FROM OUTSIDE.

IN DOMESTIC POLITICS, WE HAVE ALL KINDS OF ISSUES AND WE ARE SETTLING THOSE OURSELVES.

WE NEED TO WORK WITH OUR ALLIES, WITH RESPECT THAT THERE ARE IN THE WORLD.

>> CHRISTIANE SPOKE WITH NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL MARK RUTTE AT THIS ARTICLE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE, AS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION REPRESENTATIVE SENT MIXED SIGNALS ABOUT NATO AND UKRAINE.

>> SECRETARY-GENERAL, WELCOME.

WHAT DID YOU HEAR FROM THE HIGHEST AMERICAN REPRESENTATIVE, VICE PRESIDENT JD VANCE, THAT HE WANTED TO HEAR?

>> WE SPOKE AT LENGTH.

THERE IS A CLEAR COMMITMENT FROM THE SITE OF THE U.S. TO KEEP THE BOND STRONG BETWEEN THE U.S. AND THE EUROPEAN PART OF NATO, THE FAMILY OF COUNTRIES BASED ON VALUES BUT ALSO ON OUR COMMON SECURITY INTEREST.

THAT WAS A VERY IMPORTANT THING ABOUT UKRAINE, THAT WE HAVE TO WORK TO A PLACE WHERE UKRAINE IS IN THE BEST POSSIBLE POSITION TO START TALKS BUT ALSO TO MAKE SURE THAT WHATEVER THE END OF THOSE TALKS WILL BE, THAT THE OUTCOME WILL BE SUSTAINABLE.

THAT IT WILL BE LASTING AND THAT THE PIECE WILL BE ENDURING.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAVING CALLED RESIDENT PUTIN AND THEN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY ABOUT HIS NEGOTIATING PLAN.

WHAT DID VICE PRESIDENT JD VANCE SAY TO YOU ABOUT THAT?

IT IS SOMEWHAT OF A PUBLIC CONFUSION.

PETE HEGSETH SAID, TOOK OFF NATO MEMBERSHIP.

SAID IT WAS UNREALISTIC FOR UKRAINE TO EVEN THINK ABOUT REGAINING ITS TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY.

THEN, JD VANCE HAD TO TELL "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL," THAT ACTUALLY, THE U.S. WOULD PUT SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA AND NOTHING IS OFF THE TABLE.

WHAT IS THE FACT?

>> I CANNOT DISCLOSE WHAT WAS DISCUSSED WITH THE VICE PRESIDENT.

WHAT I CAN CLEARLY HEARING FROM ALL MY TALKS WITH THE SENIOR AMERICANS, FROM THE WHITE HOUSE, THE PENTAGON, STATE DEPARTMENT, IS WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THAT WE END THIS WAR AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

WE ALL WANT IT.

A FINAL DEAL WHERE UKRAINE HAS TO BE A STRONG DEAL BECAUSE WE KNOW CHINA IS WATCHING AND A WEEK TO GO ON UKRAINE WILL NOT ONLY HAVE CONSEQUENCES HERE IN EUROPE AND FOR THE COLLECTIVE NATO SECURITY BUT ALSO FOR CHINA, WHICH WILL THEN FEEL EMBOLDENED TO MOVE WITH WHATEVER THEY WANT TO DO.

AND, THAT WHEN THE DEAL IS STRUCK, YOU NEED SECURITY GUARANTEES TO MAKE SURE THAT UKRAINE CAN PREVAIL, THAT PUTIN WILL NEVER TRY THIS AGAIN.

SO, IT HAS TO BE A LASTING, A DURABLE OUTCOME.

WE ALL AGREE ON THAT.

AND, I AM REALLY OPTIMISTIC THAT WE CAN GET THERE.

FOR THE EUROPEANS, THE EUROPE PART OF NATO, IT IS IMPORTANT TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THEY COULD DO TO ADD TO A POTENTIAL SUCCESS.

FOR EXAMPLE, WHEN IT COMES TO SECURITY GUARANTEES MORE THAN EUROPEANS DO, INCLUDING TRAINING NOW BUT ALSO POST A PEACE DEAL.

>> THIS IS THE QUESTION.

THE AMERICANS HAVE SAID IT IS ONLY THE EUROPEANS WHO THEY INTEND TO POLICE OR GUARANTEEING ANY DEAL.

DOES THAT MEAN THAT YOU FACE JUST EUROPEANS, IS IT NATO, WHAT IS IT?

WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, WHO GOES INTO PATROL ANY LINE OF CONTACT?

>> HERE IS THE THING, MY WORRY IS THAT WE ARE NEGOTIATING WITHOUT HAVING PUTIN AT THE TABLE.

>> THAT IS WHAT THE AMERICANS HAVE DONE.

I'M SORRY.

HE SAID THAT NO AMERICAN BOOTS ON THE GROUND.

HE SAID ONLY EUROPE, AND THAT IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> I THINK THE AGREEMENT IS THIS.

WHATEVER THE OUTCOME OF THOSE TALKS WILL BE THAT PUTIN SHOULD NEVER, EVER AGAIN TRY TO CAPTURE ONE SQUARE KILOMETER.

OR SAY IT IN AMERICAN TERMS, ONE SQUARE MILE OF UKRAINE.

THAT IS VITAL.

WE CANNOT HAVE A MINSK PART THREE, THIS WAS THE AGREEMENT WHEN THEY TRY TO CAPTURE CRIMEA IN 2015.

IT HAS TO BE DURABLE.

THEN YOU AND I CAN BRAINSTORM WHATEVER THE SECURITY GUARANTEES SHOULD BE, WHAT EXACTLY IT SHOULD LOOK LIKE.

THEN, WE ARE REALLY INFORMING TOO MUCH OF OUR VERSION.

>> SOME OF YOUR ALLIES BELIEVE THEY HAVE ALREADY GIVEN TOO MUCH INFORMATION TO THE ADVERSARIES IN MOSCOW.

WE WILL GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT.

YOU SAW FOR AN REPETITIVE TO THE EU KAJA KALLAS SAYING THAT THIS IS APPEASEMENT, AND A QUICK FIX WOULD BE A DIRTY DEAL.

LET ME ASK YOU, DO YOU THINK THERE IS A QUICK FIX OR IS IT A CEASE-FIRE THAT WE ARE AIMING FOR?

>> AGAIN , WE HAVE TO WORK ON THIS STEP-BY-STEP.

FOR THE EUROPEANS, MY ADVICE IS GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER.

SEE WHAT YOU CAN DO TO MAKE SURE ON THE EUROPEAN SIDE THAT YOU CHIP INTO THIS DEBATE BECAUSE THAT WILL GUARANTEE FOR THE EUROPEANS TO HAVE A PLACE AT THE TABLE.

THAT WILL CREATE EFFECTS ON THE GROUND, ENGAGE WITH THE AMERICANS AND THE UKRAINIANS TO MAKE SURE THAT YOU CAN HAVE A POSITIVE INFLUENCE ON OUR POTENTIAL OUTCOME OF A PEACE DEAL.

THEN, GENERALLY, WE REALLY HAVE TO DO THIS STEP-BY-STEP.

>> YOU SAY THAT BUT YOU ARE A FORMER PRIME MINISTER.

YOU HAVE HAD FORCES IN THE FIELD SUPPORTING NATO MISSIONS AND PEACEKEEPING MISSIONS, I HAVE COVERED THEM BEFORE.

DO YOU THINK THAT THE AMERICANS WILL LET EUROPE HAVE A SEAT AT THE TABLE OR THAT EUROPE WILL SEES A SEAT AT THE TABLE?

IN OTHER WORDS, IT CAN BE DONE AROUND EUROPE'S BACK IF THEY EXPECT EUROPE TO TAKE THE LION'S SHARE OF THE BURDEN.

>> EUROPE HAS TO BE RELEVANT IN THE BAIT.

EUROPE CAN BE RELEVANT BY MAKING SURE YOU KEEP ON PROFILING THE MILITARY AID TO UKRAINE AND WE NEED THE U.S. TO KEEP ON DOING THAT.

MAYBE THAT EU OR THE EUROPEANS HAVE TO PAY A LITTLE BIT MORE FOR THEIR PART BUT STILL WE NEED BOTH THE U.S. AND THE EUROPEANS TO KEEP ON DELIVERING AID TO UKRAINE, WE HAVE TO KEEP ON DELIVERING THE TRAINING TO MAKE SURE WE TRAIN THE UKRAINIAN FORCES AND THEN EUROPEANS CAN NOW THINK OF WHAT POTENTIALLY AN OUTCOME OF A PEACE DEAL COULD BE, WHAT EXACTLY THEIR ROLE COULD BE FOR COUNTRIES IN A SITUATION AFTER A PEACE DEAL.

THEN YOU ARE RELEVANT.

ENGAGE WITH THE AMERICANS AND DON'T ASK FOR A PLACE AT THE TABLE BUT MAKE SURE THAT YOU HAVE PROPOSALS ON THE TABLE.

>> TAKE A PLACE AT THE TABLE.

>> BY BEING ACTIVE AND RELEVANT.

WE CAN DO THIS ON THE EUROPEAN SIDE.

WE'VE DONE IT BEFORE.

I WOULDN'T BE TOO WORRIED ABOUT IT.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE UKRAINIANS INVOLVED AND BY BEING POSITIVELY ENGAGED WITH THE AMERICANS AND UKRAINIANS.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT EUROPE HAS ENOUGH FORCES -- GIVEN IT IS ON THE TABLE, DOES EUROPE HAVE ENOUGH FORCES TO PATROL 1300 KILOMETERS OF A LINE OF CONTACT AGAINST RUSSIA?

>> THEN YOU ARE ALREADY LOOKING AT ONE POTENTIAL OUTCOME OF A PEACE DEAL WHERE SOMEBODY HAS TO CONTROL SOME CONTACT LINE.

THAT IS FIVE STEPS DOWN THE ROAD.

>> WHAT IS THE SECURITY GUARANTEES MORE THAN?

>> THAT IS WHERE YOU MAKE SURE YOU HAVE A SYSTEM IN PLACE BY WHICH YOU ABSOLUTELY GUARANTEE THAT PUTIN WILL UNDERSTAND HE CAN NEVER, NEVER TOUCH UKRAINE AGAIN.

>> WHAT IS THAT SYSTEM?

>> I'M NOT GOING TO TELL THIS TO YOU.

THERE IS ONE GUY, VLADIMIR PUTIN SITTING IN A RECLINING CHAIR IN MOSCOW LISTENING TO THE SECRETARY GENERAL OF NATO TELLING HIM EXACTLY WHAT HE WILL SEE WHEN HE POPS UP FOR PEACE TALKS.

I DON'T WANT THEM TO BE SO WISE.

>> YOU WILL ADMIT ALREADY PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS TELEGRAPHED TO HIM AS HE SITS IN HIS KREMLIN ARMCHAIR THAT HE AGREES WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN'S POSITION ON UKRAINE AND NEVER JOINING NATO.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT NATO PROMISED UKRAINE AT YOUR LAST SUMMIT IN WASHINGTON.

THAT THE FUTURE WAS IN NATO.

IS THAT OFF THE TABLE?

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP WHEN HE WAS CAMPAIGNING HAD CLEAR STATEMENTS ON THE SAME ISSUE.

YOU CANNOT BE TOO SURPRISED.

I AM PLEADING FOR A SITUATION WHERE WE TRY TO REALLY MAKE THAT PART OF THE NEGOTIATIONS, WHATEVER WILL HAPPEN.

THEN, THE KEY ISSUE IS HOW TO MAKE SURE THAT HE WILL NOT TRY AGAIN, THAT YOU WILL NOT HAVE A REPEAT OF WHAT HAPPENED, AS YOU HAVE COVERED IN 2014 AND 2015, WHICH WAS A TOTAL FAILURE, THE MINSK AGREEMENTS NOW 10 YEARS AGO.

YOU CAN NEVER HAVE THAT AGAIN BECAUSE IT WENT AGAINST THE COLLECTIVE DETERRENCE OF THE ALLIANCE AND IT WAS ALSO AGAINST THE INTEREST OF THE U.S., CHINA, ETC.

THAT IS WHAT WE HAVE TO ACHIEVE.

THE EXACT MAKEUP OF THE SECURITY GUARANTEES IS FOR THAT MOMENT.

>> SECRETARY GENERAL, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> NOW, IN THE U.S., INTERNATIONAL AID IS ALSO ON TRUMP'S FOREIGN-POLICY CHOPPING BLOCK.

FOR NOW, A FEDERAL JUDGE HAS PAUSED A FUNDING FREEZE ON USAID.

TECH GIANT BILL GATES JOINS WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS HOW THE GLOBAL FIGHT AGAINST DISEASE COULD BE AFFECTED BY THE SWEEPING CUTS, AS WELL AS HIS NEW MEMOIR, "SOURCE CODE."

>> THANK YOU, BIANNA.

BILL GATES, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I LOVE ABOUT THIS BOOK OF YOURS IS YOU DIG DEEP INTO YOUR CHILDHOOD, VERY REFLECTIVE.

YOU EVEN TALK ABOUT YOUR QUIRKY PERSONALITY, YOU GET INTO DETAILS WHEN YOU WERE YOUNG, OBSESSIVE IN YOUR OWN MIND.

YOU SAY, "IF I HAD BEEN BORN NOW, I WOULD PROBABLY BE DIAGNOSED WITH AUTISM SPECTRUM."

A LOT OF PEOPLE I WRITE ABOUT SEEM TO HAVE THOSE TRAITS, GREAT INNOVATORS.

ELON MUSK AND OTHERS.

TO WHAT EXTENT DO YOU THINK THAT THAT WAS A SUPERPOWER FOR YOU?

>> IT CERTAINLY HELPED ME IN TERMS OF MY SOCIAL SKILLS.

I WAS LATE TO DEVELOP.

BUT, IT WAS A BIG ASSET IN TERMS OF TAKING SOMETHING I WAS INTERESTED IN AND BEING ABLE TO PUT A VERY LONG HOURS INTO IT, WHETHER IT WAS MATHEMATICS TO BEGIN WITH OR SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT.

I GOT A LOT OF FEEDBACK, I GOT A LOT OF EXPOSURE.

SO, BY THE END OF THIS BOOK, EVEN THOUGH I AM STILL QUITE YOUNG, THAT THAT DEEP INTEREST MADE ME A SOFTWARE EXPERT.

>> YOU CALL YOUR BOOK, "SOURCE CODE," AND IT IS A WONDERFUL TITLE BECAUSE IT IS A NICE METAPHOR FOR THE INPUT YOU GET AS A COULD BECOME PART OF YOUR OPERATING SYSTEM.

LET ME ASK ABOUT ONE OR TWO OF THOSE INPUTS.

ONE OF THEM IS WHEN YOUR PARENTS BRING YOU TO A PSYCHOLOGIST, BECAUSE YOU ARE NOT ACTUALLY THE NICEST KID IN THE FAMILY.

AND, THE PSYCHOLOGIST GIVES YOU A SIMPLE PIECE OF ADVICE, WHICH IS, I THINK, "YOU ARE A LUCKY KID."

TELL ME HOW THAT INFORMED YOUR SOURCE CODE.

>> I WAS USING A LOT OF MY MENTAL ENERGY TO SORT OF PLAGUE MY PARENTS ABOUT THE ARBITRARINESS OF THEIR RULES AND FEELING LIKE, OKAY, THAT WAS SOME GREAT THING THAT I ONCE ABLE TO MAKE THINGS A LITTLE HARD FOR THEM.

AND, THE PERSON I SPENT TIME WITH THAT SAID, NO, YOU HAVE AN UNFAIR ADVANTAGE.

IT IS NOT GOING TO HELP YOU IN THE LONG RUN.

THEY ARE REALLY ON YOUR SIDE.

SO, THAT WAS WONDERFUL THAT HE CONVINCED ME TO REDIRECT MY ENERGY AND THINK OF MY PARENTS AS MORE POSITIVE SO, IT WORKED BETTER AFTER HE HAD FLIPPED MY FOCUS.

>> YOU HAVE A SORT OF HUMILITY IN THIS BOOK.

THERE IS A WONDERFUL THING BENJAMIN FRANKLIN SAID, WHAT HELPS WITH COMMUNITY IS REALIZING YOU HAVE BEEN WRONG AT TIMES.

DETERMINE WHAT REALIZATIONS YOU HAD GROWING UP THAT YOU WERE WRONG ABOUT AND HOPE TO CHANGE THE WAY YOU LOOK AT THINGS.

>> WELL, I DEFINITELY, WHEN I FIRST STARTED WORKING WITH OTHER PEOPLE, I WAS ONLY GOOD AT WORKING WITH PEOPLE LIKE MYSELF.

YOU KNOW, I BELIEVED IN LONG HOURS AND I WAS PRETTY HARSH.

SO, EVEN IN THE EARLY MICROSOFT DAYS, WHERE I HAD 20 EMPLOYEES, FIGURING OUT, OKAY, JUST BECAUSE YOU ARE SMART AT PROGRAMMING DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE GOOD AT OTHER THINGS, IT DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE GOOD AT MANAGING PROGRAMMERS.

CONSTANTLY SAYING THERE ARE DIFFERENT TYPES OF INTELLIGENCE AND I HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO WORK WITH ALL OF THOSE, EVEN THOUGH MY ONLY NATURAL ABILITY IS WORKING WITH HARD-CORE ENGINEERS.

>> WERE THERE ANY THINGS YOU WANTED TO MAKE GOOD FOR PEOPLE THAT THE PROFESSOR THAT YOU TOLD HIM HE WAS WRONG AND OTHERS, WHERE YOU SAY I HAVE TO MAKE IT GOOD ON THESE FOLKS?

>> THERE WERE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHEN I WAS WRITING THE BOOK, I WAS SAD TO HEAR WERE NO LONGER ALIVE LIKE ONE OF THE PROFESSORS WHO HAD ACTUALLY BEEN NICER TOWARD ME WHEN I GOT IN TROUBLE THAN I HAD REALIZED, HAD WRITTEN A LOT OF VERY POSITIVE THINGS ABOUT -- >> WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, HOW DID YOU GET IN TROUBLE?

>> I WAS USING THE HARVARD COMPUTERS A LOT.

THERE WAS A QUESTION AROUND THE WAY I WAS USING THEM.

HADLEY AGREED THAT OR NOT?

>> YOU WERE WRITING CODE FOR THE FIRST PERSONAL COMPUTER, RIGHT?

>> EXACTLY.

THIS BASIC INTERPRETER, WHICH I PUT IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN.

BUT, THEY DID, IN THE END, ADMONISH ME FOR BRINGING A NONESTUDENT, PAUL ALLEN, MY COFOUNDER INTO THE COMPUTER ROOM, WHICH WAS QUITE FAIR.

FOR A WHILE, IT LOOKED LIKE I MIGHT REALLY GET IN TROUBLE AND I HADN'T REALIZED THIS PROFESSOR HAD VERY MUCH COME TO BAT FOR ME.

>> YOU HAD A THREE HOUR DINNER WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP RIGHT AFTER HE WAS ELECTED.

I REMEMBER WE TALKED ABOUT IT A LITTLE AND YOU SAID YOU TRIED TO TALK HIM INTO KEEPING SOME OF THE FOREIGN AID AND ALL YOU REALLY GOT WAS THAT HE REALLY LISTENED TO YOU AND SAID MAYBE CALL YOU BEFORE HE MADE A FINAL DECISION.

TELL ME WHAT THE UPSHOT IS BECAUSE HE SEEMS TO, ALONG WITH ELON MUSK, PRETTY MUCH DECIMATED USAID.

>> I AM HOPEFUL THAT SOME SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF THAT CAN BE REVERSED AND PRESERVED.

ELON MUSK, OF ALL THE ELIMINATION HE HAS DONE, 99% OF IT ARE THESE EMPLOYEES OF USAID, WHO WORK OVERSEAS IN VERY TOUGH CIRCUMSTANCES AND THEY ALLOWED THE U.S., IN ADDITION TO OUR MILITARY POWER, TO GET OUT AND HELP OUT WITH FAMINE AND HIV MEDICINES, INCLUDING THIS PROGRAM CALLED PEPFAR.

I KNOW A LOT OF THOSE WORKERS.

I KNOW THAT WORK .

A VERY, VERY HIGH PERCENTAGE OF IT IS STUFF EVERY TAXPAYER WOULD BE PROUD OF.

THERE'S A LITTLE BIT OF A DISCUSSION THAT ELON MUSK I THINK SAID, OKAY, WE MADE A MISTAKE, WE WENT OVERBOARD.

NOW, WHAT IS THE EQUILIBRIUM?

HOW MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE CAN WE KEEP SO WE CAN CONTINUE TO SAVE TENS OF MILLIONS OF LIVES?

>> HOW MANY LIVES COULD BE LOST IF WE DON'T RECTIFY THIS?

>> IT IS IN THE MILLIONS.

PEPFAR HAS KEPT OVER 20 MILLION PEOPLE ALIVE WITH HIV DRUGS, STARTED BY PRESIDENT BUSH, AND CONTINUED ON A BIPARTISAN BASIS LITERALLY UP TO THE DAY THAT ELON MUSK DECIDED THAT IT WASN'T A GOOD ORGANIZATION.

>> IT SEEMS ALMOST THAT IT IS WORST THAT AND NEVER HAVING DONE IT AT ALL, IF YOU PUT PEOPLE ON HIV AND AIDS DRUGS AND THEN, ALL OF A SUDDEN, ONE DAY THEY DISAPPEAR.

>> I THINK WHOEVER WAS DOING THESE SOFTWARE QUERIES AND FINDING LESS THAN 1% OF THESE THINGS THAT THEY WERE KIND OF, IN MANY CASES, INCORRECTLY SAYING OUTRAGEOUS THINGS ABOUT, I DON'T THINK THEY REALLY GOT THE PICTURE OF THAT HERE ON THE FIELD.

KEEPING PEOPLE ALIVE FROM HIV, THE U.S. HAS DONE A GREAT JOB.

EVEN IF WE HAVE TO REDUCE THAT SOME, AND ABRUPT WITHDRAWAL IS A TERRIBLE THING.

>> BUT, THERE IS A LARGER PICTURE, WHICH IS I DON'T THINK PEOPLE UNDERSTAND EITHER HOW MUCH WE DO IN FOREIGN AID OR EVEN WHY WE DO FOREIGN AID.

SO, LEAVE ASIDE THE DETAILS, WHY SHOULD WE BE GIVING FOREIGN AID?

>> WELL, MOST PEOPLE, WHEN THEY ARE ASKED, THINK OF THAT FOREIGN AID IS A BIG PART OF THE BUDGET, LIKE 5%, AND WE THINK IT SHOULD BE MORE LIKE 2%, WHEN IN FACT, IT IS ACTUALLY 1%.

THERE IS THE UPLIFTING ELEMENT, THAT IF THESE COUNTRIES CAN GET OUT OF THE POVERTY TRAP, THEN THEY PARTICIPATE IN DOING BUSINESS WITH THE U.S., THEY HAVE GRATITUDE TOWARD THE U.S.

EVEN BEYOND THE MORAL REASON, MAINTAINING STABILITY, REDUCING ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE SOMETHING IN COMMON THAT WE CAN HELP THESE COUNTRIES.

NOW, THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF DO THEY FAVOR CHINA OVER US?

AND, BECAUSE OF THIS PEPFAR, THEY HAVE BEEN VERY MUCH POSITIVE TOWARD THE UNITED STATES.

>> MICHAEL BLOOMBERG, WHEN THE U.S.

PULLED OUT OF THE PARIS CLIMATE ACCORD RECENTLY SAID HE'S GOING TO HELP MAKE UP FOR IT.

IS THERE ANYTHING THE GATES FOUNDATION CAN DO IN THIS REGARD?

>> USAID WAS GIVEN OUT OVER 40 BILLION A YEAR.

SO, THE GATES FOUNDATION, EVEN AS THE LARGEST PHILANTHROPY, IS ONLY ABOUT 9 BILLION A YEAR.

THERE ARE SOME REALLY UNUSUAL THINGS LIKE MEDICAL TRIALS THAT ARE BEING INTERRUPTED, THAT, THAT IS ACTUALLY QUITE UNETHICAL.

WE MAY STEP UP IN A VERY MINOR WAY.

BUT, THERE IS NOTHING OUT THERE THAT CAN REPLACE THINGS LIKE PEPFAR OR THE PRESIDENT'S MALARIA INITIATIVE.

THESE ARE VERY TIGHT TIMES FOR ALL DONORS.

OTHER RICH COUNTRIES ARE MORE GENEROUS THAN WE ARE AS A PERCENTAGE OF THEIR ECONOMY.

THE AFRICAN COUNTRIES ARE VERY INDEBTED.

IF THIS MONEY GOES AWAY, THERE WILL BE DRAMATIC CONSEQUENCES.

>> ROBERT KENNEDY JUNIOR, SECRETARY OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES, IN HIS BOOK, HE ACCUSED YOU AND DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, OF, "A HISTORIC COUP D'ITAT AGAINST WESTERN DEMOCRACY," AND, ALL THE THINGS, FROM VACCINES TO COVID- 19 TO THE PANDEMIC THAT YOU HAVE BEEN INTERESTED IN, HOW IS THIS GOING TO AFFECT YOUR ABILITY TO DO WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN DOING AT THE GATES FOUNDATION?

>> WELL, THE GATES FOUNDATION IS GOING TO WORK WITH THE GOVERNMENT.

YOU KNOW, THAT NIH IS THE BEST MEDICAL RESEARCH ORGANIZATION IN THE WORLD, JUST LIKE USAID IS THE BEST AID ORGANIZATION.

AND, WE HAVE DONE A LOT WITH THEM.

THE PIPELINE OF INNOVATIONS THAT I GOT PRESIDENT TRUMP ENTHUSED ABOUT, INCLUDING THINGS LIKE EVENTUALLY HAVING GENETIC EDITS FOR AN HIV SURE, THAT WILL BE UNDER ROBERT KENNEDY.

I AM GOING TO GO MEET WITH HIM AND EXPLAIN, YOU KNOW, WHY -- >> HAS HE AGREED TO MEET WITH YOU?

>> I THINK IT IS VERY, VERY LIKELY THAT WE WILL GET A MEETING LATER THIS MONTH.

I HOPE SO.

I WILL BE REACHING OUT TO HIM.

>> I NOTICED AT THE INAUGURATION, AS I'M SURE YOU DID, THAT ALL THE TECH PROS ARE THERE IN THE FRONT ROW.

THEY USED IT TO BE TECH NERDS.

NOW THEY ARE INVITED TO THE FRONT ROW OF THE INAUGURATION.

WHAT HAPPENED TO THE CULTURE TO BECOME SO POOR AND WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THEM ALL BEING IN GOVERNMENT NOW?

>> WELL, THE PROFIT STREAMS OF THESE TECH COMPANIES ARE PHENOMENAL.

THESE ARE THE HIGHEST VALUE COMPANIES IN THE WORLD.

AND, OF COURSE, THE GOVERNMENT, WHETHER IT IS THROUGH THE SOFTWARE THAT THEY BY OR AI REGULATION OR ANTITRUST, THEY EFFECT THESE COMPANIES A LOT.

UNLIKE ONE I NAOVELY THOUGHT MICROSOFT DIDN'T NEED TO BE IN WASHINGTON, D.C. AND THAT WAS THE GREAT THING ABOUT THIS COUNTRY, NOW ALL THOSE COMPANIES HAS A HUGE PRESENCE.

SO, YOU KNOW THEY ARE PLAYING A FOR PROFIT GAME.

I'M NO LONGER IN THAT.

I CAN UNDERSTAND WHY THEY ARE BEING VERY RESPONSIVE IN TRYING TO CONNECT.

>> DO YOU THINK THERE IS SOME DANGER OF THAT TYPE OF MENTALITY COMING INTO THE GOVERNMENT?

>> WELL, THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO BE INDEPENDENT AND WORK ON BEHALF OF THE TAXPAYER AND THE CONSUMER.

AND, YOU KNOW, THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A QUESTION AS A BIG BUSINESS AND GOVERNMENT ARE ALIGNED.

IT IS EARLY DAYS HERE TO SEE HOW IT GETS MANAGED.

YOU KNOW, ISSUES LIKE ANTITRUST AND GOVERNMENT PURCHASING, AI REGULATION.

I WOULD SAY I FIND IT FASCINATING.

THEY ARE KIND OF COMPETING TO GET THE MOST ATTENTION.

>> WHEN YOU CAME DOWN HERE TO NEW ORLEANS A COUPLE YEARS AGO AND SPOKE AT TULANE TO MY STUDENTS, YOU TALK ABOUT OPENAI, CHATGPT HAD JUST COME ALONG, AND YOU SAID YOU HAD GONE BACK AND WORKED WITH MICROSOFT TEAMS TO EMBED AI INTO IT.

HOW HAS THAT GONE, WHAT IS GOING TO BE THE THING WE SEE COMING OUT OF THAT?

>> WELL, THE LAST THREE YEARS, SINCE THE CHATGPT LARGE LANGUAGE MODEL, AND MANY COMPETITORS HAVE COME ALONG, THE PROGRESS HAS BEEN PRETTY AMAZING.

THEY STILL CAN'T SOLVE ALL THE PROBLEMS.

THEY STILL HAVE RELIABILITY ISSUES.

BUT, THE PERFORMANCE AND THAT RELIABILITY IS ON A TRACK THAT IT IS GOING TO BE PROFOUND HOW THEY CAN INCREASE FIRST WHITE- COLLAR PRODUCTIVITY, THEN AS THE ROBOT TO GET BETTER, ALL OF THEM ECONOMY, INCLUDING BLUE- COLLAR AS WELL.

SO, FOR ME, I ADVISE MICROSOFT AND I TAKE THAT KNOWLEDGE SO THE GATES FOUNDATION CAN GET THESE TECHNOLOGIES TO STUDENTS IN THE INNER CITY IN THE U.S. AND TO THE DEVELOPING COUNTRIES, PARTICULARLY IN AFRICA, AND NOT HAVE IT BE A 20 YEAR DELAY BETWEEN USAGE IN THE RICH WORLD VERSUS THE DEVELOPING WORLD.

>> YOU HAVE BEEN AN ADVISOR WITH OPENAI AND ITS RELATIONSHIP WITH MICROSOFT.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF ELON MUSK'S SURPRISE BID TO TRY TO TAKE BACK OPENAI FROM SAM ALTMAN, AND MAYBE FROM THE OWNERSHIP STAKE OF MICROSOFT?

>> AI IS ABOUT THE MOST COMPETITIVE SPACE I HAVE EVER SEEN.

WHETHER IT IS INDEPENDENT COMPANIES LIKE ELON MUSK HAS HIS, XAI, THERE ARE MANY OTHERS.

GOOGLE AND MICROSOFT ARE THE TWO BIGGEST COMPANIES INVESTING NOT JUST TENS BUT LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS.

I THINK SOME OF THESE MANEUVERS ARE DRIVEN BY THE PERSONAL RELATIONSHIPS, BUT OVERALL, I'D NEVER SEEN ANYTHING MORE COMPETITIVE, WHICH IS PARTLY WHY THE PROGRESS WE ARE SEEING IS SO RAPID.

>> WAY BACK IN 1997, IN A PREVIOUS CENTURY, I INTERVIEWED YOU FOR "TIME MAGAZINE," AND I ASKED YOU IF YOU THOUGHT THERE WAS SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT BETWEEN THE SOFTWARE OF COMPUTERS AND OUR CARBON- BASED SYSTEM AND WHAT WE CALL CONSCIOUSNESS.

I WENT BACK AND LOOKED AT IT AND HERE IS WHAT YOU TOLD ME.

HE SAID, "I DON'T THINK THERE IS ANYTHING UNIQUE ABOUT HUMAN INTELLIGENCE.

ALL THE NEURONS IN THE BRAIN THAT MAKE UP PERCEPTIONS AND EMOTIONS OPERATE IN A BINARY FASHION.

WE CAN SOMEDAY REPLICATE THAT ON A MACHINE."

THAT WAS BEFORE YOU RAISED THREE KIDS, YOU WATCHED THEM LOOK AT YOUR FACE AND RECOGNIZE IT.

THAT WAS BEFORE CHATGPT CAME ALONG.

LET ME ASK YOU AGAIN SORT OF THE SAME QUESTION.

IS THERE SOMETHING FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT ABOUT THE WAY WE HUMANS CAN ENGINEER AI AND THE WAY THAT MAJOR OR NATURE'S GOD CREATED THE HUMAN MIND?

>> WELL, CERTAINLY, THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

BUT, IF THE QUESTION IS, SAY, TAKE A MEDICAL DIAGNOSIS OR A ROBOT DOING FACTORY WORK, WILL THE QUALITY OF THAT FACTORY WORK OR THAT MEDICAL DIAGNOSIS FROM THE SOFTWARE EXCEED HUMAN CAPACITY?

THE ANSWER IS YES, IN TIME IT WILL.

YOU WILL BE MISSING THE WONDERFUL HUMANITY AND HUMANS WILL STILL, WITH THEIR EXTRA TIME, CHOOSE TO INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER, BY AND LARGE.

CONSCIOUSNESS PROBABLY WON'T BE THERE.

BUT, ANYTHING THAT IS UTILITARIAN, THE AI WILL EVENTUALLY SURPASS HUMAN CAPABILITY.

>> YOU RIGHT IN THE END OF THE BOOK THAT PIECING TOGETHER MEMORIES "HELPS ME BETTER UNDERSTAND MYSELF."

WHAT WAS THE MOST INTERESTING SELF REVELATION THAT PIECING TOGETHER MEMORIES BROUGHT?

>> IT IS STUNNING TO ME HOW LUCKY I WAS WITH MY DAD, MY MOM, THE TIME I WAS BORN, THAT MANY TIMES WHERE I WOULD BE EXPOSED AND VERY GOOD SOFTWARE PEOPLE, ADULTS WOULD GUIDE ME ON HOW TO IMPROVE, JUST A NUMBER OF THOSE THINGS THAT CAME TOGETHER THAT MEANT AT THE END OF THIS BOOK, WHICH IS THE START OF MICROSOFT, THAT I WAS IN A POSITION TO DO THAT SOFTWARE AND HAVING THE WORLD'S BEST SOFTWARE FACTORY COULD MAKE A HUGE CONTRIBUTION.

MY AMAZEMENT, MY GRATITUDE, MY REFLECTING BACK ON FRIENDS AND FAMILY WAS A VERY FULFILLING EXERCISE THAT HUMBLED ME IN TERMS OF ALL OF THE INCREDIBLE THINGS I'VE GOTTEN TO EXPERIENCE.

>> AMAZING, GRATITUDE, HUMBLING.

DO YOU THINK A MACHINE WILL EVER BE ABLE TO GIVE THAT FEELING?

>> NO, FEELING IS AN INTRINSIC THING THAT WE UNDERSTAND.

THAT IS LIKE CONSCIOUSNESS.

IT WILL BE ABLE TO WRITE WORDS LIKE THAT BUT NOT EXPERIENCE THE REAL HUMAN EMOTION THAT I DID.

>> BILL GATES, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> THAT IS IT FOR NOW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM NEW YORK.