>>> HELLO, EVERYBODY, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

TRUMP'S JAW-DROPPING ACCUSATION AS THE PRESIDENT BLAMES UKRAINE FOR RUSSIA'S INVASION.

HAVE THINGS EVER BEEN BETTER FOR PRESIDENT PUTIN?

I SPOKE TO FORMER NEGOTIATOR WENDY SHERMAN WHO LED U.S. TALKS WITH RUSSIA ON THE EVE OF THE 2022 INVASION.

THEN ISRAEL PREPARES TO RECEIVE THE BODIES OF ITS DEAD HOSTAGES WITH THE NEXT PHASE OF CEASE-FIRE TALKS TO BEGIN, WHAT IS THE MOOD IN THE COUNTRY?

RUTH MARGALIT JOINS ME.

AND AHEAD, TRYING TO UPHOLD THE RULE OF LAW IN THE UNITED STATES.

BRENDAN BALLOU, A FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR WHO RESIGNED FROM THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT LAST MONTH.

HIS CONCERNS AS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION PUSHES COURTS TO THE LIMIT.

>>> "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

A GONE SMACKING SHIFT IN U.S. RUSSIA RELATIONS AS PRESIDENTS TRUMP AND ZELENSKYY TAKE EACH OTHER ON AND PRESIDENT PUTIN WATCHES APPROVINGLY FROM RUSSIA.

APPARENTLY RETURNING TO THE FOLD AFTER MORE THAN FOUR YEARS OF HIGH-LEVEL TALKS IN SAUDI ARABIA.

FOUR HOURS, RATHER.

THE U.S. AND RUSSIA AGREE TO WORK THROUGH THE END OF THE CONFLICT IN UKRAINE AND TO, QUOTE, EXAMINE BOTH THE GEOPOLITICAL AND ECONOMIC COOPERATION THAT COULD RESULT FROM RESTORED DIPLOMATIC RELATIONS.

UKRAINE AND EUROPE WERE NOT INVITED TO THE SAUDI MEETING AFTERWARDS.

DONALD TRUMP FALSELY ACCUSED UKRAINE OF STARTING THE WAR.

THIS MORNING, CALLING PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY A DICTATOR WITHOUT ELECTIONS.

EARLIER, THE UKRAINIAN LEADER HAD ACCUSED DONALD TRUMP OF LIVING IN A RUSSIAN DISINFORMATION SPACE.

HERE IS ALL OF THIS TALK.

>> WE HAVE A SITUATION WHERE WE HAVEN'T HAD ELECTIONS IN UKRAINE.

WHERE WE HAVE MARSHAL LAW ESSENTIALLY MARSHAL LAW IN UKRAINE.

TELL LEADER IN UKRAINE, OH, WE WEREN'T INVITED.

YOU'VE BEEN THERE THREE YEARS.

YOU SHOULD HAVE ENDED IT.

>> A REALITY CHECK ACCORDING TO POLLS.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY'S POPULARITY HAS NEVER FALLEN BELOW 50% SINCE THE START OF THE WAR.

ALSO, RUSSIA STARTED IT.

WENDY SHERM AN WAS DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE IN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

SHE WAS AMONG THE LAST AMERICAN DIPLOMATS TO NEGOTIATE WITH RUSSIAN OFFICIALS ON THE EVE OF THEIR 2022 INVASION AND SHE'S JOINING THE PROGRAM LIVE FROM WASHINGTON.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

CAN I START BY ASKING YOU HOW YOU INTERPRET WHAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS NOW SAYING AND ESSENTIALLY, LASHING OUT VERBALLY AGAINST PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY, CALLING HIM A DICTATOR, SAYING THAT HIS POLLS ARE BELOW, YOU KNOW, 4%.

SAYING THAT HE STARTED THE WAR.

WHY DO YOU THINK HE'S DOING THAT?

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

SOME PEOPLE BELIEVE HE'S DOING THIS TACTICALLY, THAT HE'S TRYING TO THAT HE'S TRYING TO GET HIM TO NEGOTIATE AWAY THINGS THAT DONALD TRUMP BELIEVES ARE NECESSARY TO END THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

BUT QUITE FRANKLY, IT'S OUTRAGEOUS.

ONE DOESN'T DO THIS TO ALLIES BUT TO ZELENSKYY, TO UKRAINE, WHO HAS FOUGHT SO VALIANTLY OVER THESE THREE YEARS, TO OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES, THE PRESIDENT SEEMS TO HAVE A VERSION OF HOW ONE GOES ABOUT THINGS AND THAT IS TRANSACTIONALLY, NOT WITH ALLIES AND PARTNERS.

WE'RE SEEING THAT PLAY OUT HERE.

SO FAR HE'S GIVEN PUTIN VIRTUALLY EVERYTHING PUTIN WANTS.

HE OR HIS IONS, HIS SECRETARIES, HAVE GIVEN EVERYTHING AWAY TO PUTIN.

HE SAID NIGHTATO WON'T BE PRESE AFTER A EVE AGREEMENT.

HE'S SAID WE'LL HAVE ECONOMIC RELATIONS WITH RUSSIA.

WE'LL REESTABLISH ALL OF THE PERSONNEL IN OUR AGENCIES, AND OUR EMBASSIES WITH RUSSIA.

HE HAS FLATTERED PUTIN AND HE IS TRYING TO HUMILIATE AND UNDERMINE PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY, WHO AS YOU SAID, HAS BEEN AN EXTRAORDINARY LEADER OF UKRAINE IN A TIME WHERE PUTIN INVADED UKRAINE.

THAT IS FACT.

>> WENDY SHERMAN, YOU KNOW THIS PROCESS SO WELL.

YOU KNOW ALL THE PLAYERS AND THE ACTORS AS WELL.

AND YOU PROBABLY HEARD PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AT SOME POINT IN THE LAST 24 HOURS, YOU KNOW, COUNTERING ONE OF TRUMP'S STATEMENTS BY SAYING, HE LIVES IN A DISINFORMATION SPACE.

SO I KIND OF WANT TO ASK YOU WHAT YOU THINK PUTIN IS THINKING NOW?

OR EVEN LAVROV AND WHOEVER WAS WITH HIM AT THE SAUDI TALKS.

BECAUSE THAT DISINFORMATION IS CLEARLY, AS WE KNOW, BEING PEDDLED BY RUSSIA.

THOSE ARE THE RUSSIAN TALKING POINTS, WHAT RUSSIA SAID PUBLICLY, WHAT RUSSIAN STATE MEDIA SAYS.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK PUTIN IS THINKING NOW?

>> I THINK PUTIN IS ECSTATIC.

HE'S BASICALLY GOTTEN EVERYTHING HE WANTS AT THE BEGINNING OF A NEGOTIATION AND THERE IS, PARDON ME, AN NBC NEWS REPORT THAT SAYS THAT AMERICAN INTELLIGENCE SHOWS THAT PUTIN TRULY DOESN'T WANT A DEAL.

HE WANTS ALL OF UKRAINE, AND MY OWN SENSE FROM HAVING SAT WITH THE RUSSIANS ON JANUARY 10th, 2022, A LITTLE OVER A MONTH BEFORE THE ACTUAL INVASION, FEBRUARY 24th, 2022, IS THAT PUTIN SEES UKRAINE AS PART OF THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE, SO TO SPEAK.

HE BELIEVES IT IDEALLY, AND I DON'T THINK HE'LL SETTLE FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN A CHANCE TO TAKE ALL OF RUSSIA.

SO PRESIDENT TRUMP GIVING ALL OF THESE GIMMES TO RUSSIA INCLUDING SAYING AMERICAN COMPANIES WILL COME BACK.

OUR OIL AND GAS COMPANIES.

HE MIGHT WITHDRAW TROOPS FROM THE BALTICS.

ALL OF THESE THINGS ARE THINGS THAT PUTIN HAS LONG WANTED, AND YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, WHEN I MET WITH THE RUSSIANS, WE DISCUSSED SOME OF THE THINGS WE COULD DO TO MEET SOME OF THEIR CONCERNS ABOUT HOW NUCLEAR WEAPONS WERE POISED IN EUROPE.

WHERE EUROPEAN TROOPS WERE, WHAT EXERCISES MIGHT TAKE PLACE.

EVEN KNOWING THAT NONE OF THAT WOULD SATISFY VLADIMIR PUTIN.

HE WAS INTENT ON TAKING UKRAINE, AND I BELIEVE HE STILL IS.

>> SO YOU MENTIONED YOUR LAST, YOU KNOW, NEGOTIATIONS.

OF COURSE, WE ALL REMEMBER HOW THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ACTUALLY BROKE WITH PRECEDENT AND PUT OUT CLASSIFIED INFORMATION FOR WEEKS BEFORE THE INVASION, TRYING TO GIN UP, HOPING, I GUESS, HOPING THAT IF PUTIN WAS CALLED OUT, HE WOULD NOT DO IT BUT THEN HE DID DO IT.

YOU SAID ABOUT THE 2022 TALKS, AND HERE WE WERE, ON THE EVE OF WHAT PUTIN HAD ALREADY DECIDED, WHICH WAS TO INVADE A SOVEREIGN COUNTRY, MEETING WITH THE RUSSIANS TO HEAR WHAT THEIR CONCERNS WERE.

BUT THE DECISION HAD CLEARLY ALREADY BEEN MADE.

SO WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM THAT EXPERIENCE?

AS THE CURRENT NEGOTIATORS ARE SITTING DOWN WITH PUTIN, I REMEMBER THEY KEPT SAYING, NO, WE WON'T INVADE, WE WON'T INVADE, WE WON'T INVADE, AND THEN THEY DID.

>> INDEED.

I THINK WHAT WE CAN LEARN IS TWO THINGS.

WE DID DIPLOMACY BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO TRY EVERYTHING TO STOP ANOTHER COUNTRY FOR ILLEGALLY AND HORRIFYINGLY INVADING A SOVEREIGN TERRITORY.

SO WE NEEDED TO TRY EVERYTHING WE POSSIBLY COULD.

SECONDLY, WE WANTED TO BRING THE WORLD TOGETHER AS ONE AGAINST WHAT WE KNEW WAS GOING TO BE A HORRIFYING INVASION.

AND INDEED, AFTER THAT JANUARY 10th, 2022, MEETING IN GENEVA WITH THE RUSSIANS, I WENT TO BRUSSELS THE NEXT DAY FOR AN EXTRAORDINARY NATO MEETING WHERE THE RUSSIANS PRESENTED THEIR CASE.

THEN 30 NATIONS, EVEN INCLUDING SOME YOU WOULD NOT EXPECT, OVER FOUR HOURS ALL SAID THE SAME THING.

THE IMPORTANCE OF SOVEREIGNTY, TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY, AND THE RIGHT OF COUNTRIES TO MAKE THEIR OWN POLITICAL FUTURE AND THEIR OWN POLITICAL DECISIONS.

SO IT BROUGHT THE WORLD TOGETHER TO, IN FACT, DEAL WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN.

NOW WE'VE SEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP NOT ONLY NOT APPRECIATE WHO VLADIMIR PUTIN IS, AND WHAT HE INTENDS TO DO, WHAT A REPUBLICAN SENATOR SAID YESTERDAY, HE CALLED PUTIN A WAR CRIMINAL.

SOMEONE THAT COULD NEVER BE TRUSTED.

WHO DID NOT WANT TO GIVE THIS UP.

WE HEARD SENATOR ROUNDS SAY IN FACT, RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE.

WE'RE BEGINNING TO SEE EVEN REPUBLICAN SENATORS PUTTING FACTS ON THE TABLE.

WE NEED TO BRING THE WORLD TOGETHER TO DEAL WITH THIS AND IT IS QUITE CRITICAL THAT THE EUROPEANS COME TOGETHER AND PUT SOME IDEAS ON THE TABLE.

IF TRUMP IS DENIGRATING EVERYONE IN HOPES HE WILL FORCE THEM TO COME TO THE TABLE WITH NEW IDEAS, AND SHOULDER THE RESPONSIBILITY, EUROPEANS HAVE SHOULDERED RESPONSIBILITY.

THEY HAVE PUT MORE ECONOMIC AID INTO UKRAINE THAN THE UNITED STATES HAS.

WE HAVE PUT MORE WEAPONS INTO UKRAINE, BUT THAT IS TO BE EVERY TO THE ADVANTAGE OF OUR MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX BECAUSE IT'S MEANT AMERICAN JOBS AND THE CREATION OF THOSE WEAPONS.

SO EUROPE HAS COME FORWARD.

WE NEED THEM TO CONTINUE TO DO SO.

I HOPE THE ONGOING MEETINGS THAT ARE BEING HELD WILL CREATE SOLIDARITY AMONG THE EUROPEANS TO REALLY ACT AS ONE.

>> OKAY.

>> I WANT TO GET INTO EUROPE IN A MOMENT.

FIRST I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, TRUMP HAS ALWAYS THAT, AND HE RAN ON SAYING, HE WOULD BRING PEACE, RIGHT?

NEGOTIATE.

SO WE KIND OF KNEW THAT WAS WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.

AND MARCO RUBIO, SENATOR MARCO RUBIO, WHO IS NOW THE SECRETARY OF STATE, HAS SAID OVER THE YEARS, FOR INSTANCE, BACK IN 2022, DURING THE INVASION, THAT HE TWEETED, PUTIN WAS AN EXPERT LIAR.

IF THERE WAS A CEASE-FIRE, IT IS BECAUSE HE SEES SOME STRATEGICAL OR TACTICAL BELIEF.

SO MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, NOT WHETHER HE'S BEING DUPED NOW, BUT DO YOU THINK HE WILL REALIZE, GIVEN WHERE HE COMES FROM ON THIS ISSUE, AND SITTING FACE TO FACE WITH THE RUSSIANS, THAT AS YOU SAY, THEY DON'T WANT TO DEAL, COULD HE ACTUALLY TAKE THAT MESSAGE BACK TO TRUMP?

>> WELL, I WOULD HOPE THAT SECRETARY RUBIO, FORMER SENATOR RUBIO, WILL IN FACT AT LEAST IN PRIVATE BE TELLING TRUMP WHAT HIS OWN EXPERIENCE IS AND WHAT HE KNOWS.

AND I HOPE THAT WHATEVER TEAM THEY PUT TOGETHER TO DO THESE NEGOTIATIONS IS A TEAM WITH EXPERIENCE IN NEGOTIATING GO WITH THE RUSSIANS.

IT IS, THE RUSSIANS ARE VERY TOUGH AND VERY SEASONED NEGOTIATORS.

THE TWO GENTLEMEN WHO CAME YESTERDAY IN SAUDI ARABIA WHO SHOOK OFF A PRESIDENTIAL ADVISE ORGS FORMER AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES, MANY OF US KNOW HIM QUITE WELL, AND LAVROV, WHO AS YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, THERE'S AN DEAL THAT SERGEI LAVROV HAS NOT BEEN PART OF IN DECADES.

HE KNOWS EUROPE VERY WELL, HE KNOWS THE WORLD VERY WELL.

ALTHOUGH I DON'T THINK HE HAS PUTIN'S EAR IN THE SAME WAY HE ONCE DID, HE IS CERTAINLY A VERY SEASONED NEGOTIATOR.

AND UNDERSTANDS AMERICANS QUITE WELL.

SO I HOPE THAT WHATEVER TEAM THE U.S.

PUTS TOGETHER IS SEASONED, HAS EXPERIENCE, SPEAKS RUSSIAN, AND ACTUALLY KNOWS HOW TO NEGOTIATE WITH THE RUSSIANS.

ONE HAS TO BE VERY TOUGH.

>> PRESIDENT PUTIN HAS SAID AT SOME KIND OF MEETING WITH REPORTERS TODAY THAT, YOU KNOW, EVERYBODY IS BEING HYSTERICAL.

EUROPE -- THAT WAS HIS WORD, HYSTERICAL, HYSTERIA, OVER WHAT'S GOING ON, THE VIEW THAT MANY PEOPLE ARE SAYING THAT TRUMP SEEMS TO BE IN PUBLIC BASICALLY SCOLDING AND TURNING ON HIS ALLIES WHILE COZYING UP AND CUDDLING UP WITH HIS ADVERSARY PUTIN.

BORIS JOHNSON, FORMER BRITISH PRIME MINISTER, AND BIG, BIG UKRAINE DEFENDER, SAID EUROPEANS SHOULD STOP BEING SCANDALIZED BY WHAT TRUMP SAID, AND HIS COMMENTS ARE NOT INTENDED TO BE HISTORICALLY ACCURATE BUT TO SHOCK EUROPE INTO ACTION.

WILL THAT WORK?

WHAT ACTION DO YOU HAVE EUROPE -- WE'VE ALREADY LAID OUT HOW THEY HAVE GIVEN EVEN MORE FINANCIAL AID TO UKRAINE.

WHAT NOW DOES EUROPE NEED TO DO?

INCLUDING IF THERE WAS TO BE A CEASE-FIRE?

>> SO I THINK THAT WE HEARD THE PRIME MINISTER OF THE U.K. SAY THAT HE WOULD CONSIDER PUTTING TROOPS IN TO HELP KEEP PEACE IN UKRAINE.

WE NEED TO KNOW WHETHER THE REST OF EUROPE WILL FOLLOW SUIT, EVEN THOUGH LAVROV HAS THAT, NOT ONLY CAN'T NATO HAVE TROOPS BUT ANY PART OF NATO CANNOT HAVE TROOPS.

ONE PRESUMES THAT IS A NEGOTIATING POSITION.

SO I WOULD HOPE THAT EUROPE WOULD THINK VERY STRONGLY ABOUT WHAT IT COULD OFFER.

ON THE RECONSTRUCTION OF UKRAINE, EUROPE HAS REALLY HAD ITS HANDS ON MOST RUSSIAN ASSETS THAT HAVE BEEN SEIZED.

THERE HAD BEEN AGREEMENT DURING THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TO IN FACT USE THE INTEREST ON THOSE ASSETS AS PART OF THE FUNDS FOR RECONSTRUCTION.

SO EUROPE HAS A LOT TO OFFER IN THAT REGARD.

YOU KNOW BETTER THAN I, CHRISTIANE, IT IS HARD TO WRANGLE 27 COUNTRIES, PLUS THE U.K., TOGETHER IN ANY SECURITY AGREEMENT.

AND THE DAYS WHEN CHANCELLOR MERKEL OF GERMANY COULD REALLY LEAD THE EUROPEAN UNION, THOSE DAYS ARE OVER.

SO I THINK PRESIDENT MACRON IS TRYING TO TAKE THAT ROLE.

PRIME MINISTER MALONEY CLEARLY HAS VERY STRONG RELATIONS WITH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

I WOULD HOPE XI WOULD UNDERSTAND WHAT'S NECESSARY HERE.

AND WE'RE GOING TO SEE A GERMAN ELECTION AND HOPEFULLY COME FORWARD WITH A STRONG CHANCELLOR WHO WILL PLAY A MORE TRADITIONAL ROLE IN HELPING TO LEAD EUROPE.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF WORK TO BE DONE HERE.

BUT WE ALSO HAVE A LOT TO GO HERE.

AND I HOPE THAT BORIS JOHNSON IS RIGHT.

THIS IS A TACTIC.

IN MY VIEW, IT'S A HORRIBLE TACTIC.

IT'S BULLYING, IT IS HUMILIATING, IT IS UNDERMINING ALLIES AND PARTNERS.

BUT INDEED, TRUMP HAS DONE THIS BEFORE.

HE'S DOING IT IN THE MIDDLE EAST WITH ARAB PARTNERS BY PUTTING OUT HIS GAZA IDEA, AND IN ESSENCE, SHOCKING THEM AND TRYING TO GET THE ARAB COUNTRIES TO COME FORWARD WITH THEIR OWN PLAN, AND TO REALLY BACK UP THE PALESTINIANS.

SO IT'S NOT AN UNHEARD OF TACK , TACTIC BY DONALD TRUMP.

WHAT HE HAS DONE IS OUTRAGEOUS, APPALLING, AND INDEED, UNTRUE.

>> JUST TO NOTE, BECAUSE YOU TALKED ABOUT THE UPCOMING ELECTION, IT'S ONE OF THE MOST CONSEQUENTIAL IN GERMANY'S POST-WAR HISTORY.

AND THERE WAS A BIG PUSHBACK INCLUDING FROM GERMANY'S DEFENSE MINISTER AGAINST THE VICE PRESIDENT VANCE WHEN HE SEEMED TO SAY, YOU NEED TO HAVE THESE FAR-RIGHT PARTIES, AFD, WHICH AS YOU KNOW, HAS CERTAIN PRAISE FOR CERTAIN NAZI IDEAS.

AND THERE WAS A BIG, BIG PUSHBACK, CERTAINLY IN EUROPE FOR THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE.

TO THAT POINT AS WELL, GO WITH A LOT OF WHAT YOU SAY, STATISTICS AND UNTRUTH BEING BANDIED AROUND.

I WONDER WHAT YOU WOULD SAY TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WHO ARE NOW WATCHING ON TRUTH SOCIAL AND ELSEWHERE PRESIDENT TRUMP RIGHT AND SAY THAT THEY, WASHINGTON, HAS PAID CLOSE TO $300 BILLION IN SUPPORT TO UKRAINE, AND THAT $300 BILLION IN U.S. ASSISTANCE DWARFS CONTRIBUTIONS FROM OTHER COUNTRIES.

ZELENSKYY HIT BACK, OR COUNTERED WITH THE FACTS.

AND IT IS, AS HE SAID, YES, IN TOTAL, THERE'S BEEN THAT.

BUT IT HAS BEEN FROM BOTH E.U.

AND THE U.S., AND THE U.S. HAS GIVEN AROUND $60 BILLION PLUS AN ADDITIONAL $31.5 BILLION IN GENERAL.

SO WHEN THE PRESIDENT SAYS THAT, IT MUST MAKE AMERICANS WHO DON'T KNOW THE NUMBERS UPSET AND ANGRY.

HOW DAMAGING IS IT TO PLAY WITH THOSE NUMBERS IN THAT NONFACTUAL WAY?

>> WE HAVE SEEN THE PRESIDENT PLAY WITH NUMBERS NONFACTUALLY VIRTUALLY EVERY SINGLE DAY SINCE HE'S BECOME PRESIDENT ON ALL MANNER OF THINGS.

WHAT I WOULD SAY TO AMERICANS, TO ANYBODY LISTENING TO THE PROGRAM, EUROPEANS HAVE REALLY COME FORWARD.

THEY HAVE SUPPORTED UKRAINE TO BE ABLE TO ECONOMICALLY SURVIVE AS AN ECONOMY DURING THREE YEARS HAVE WAR.

THE UNITED STATES HAS PROVIDED THE LION'S SHARE OF THE WEAPONS, THOUGH OTHER COUNTRIES CERTAINLY HAVE PUT IN THEIR SHARE, AS HAVE 50 COUNTRIES AROUND THE WORLD PROVIDED SUPPORT FOR UKRAINE.

BUT AS I POINTED OUT EARLIER, A LOT, A LOT OF LIONEL'S SHARE, THE WEAPON'S SHARE OF WEAPONS THAT WE HAVE PUT INTO UKRAINE HAVE CREATED AMERICAN JOBS, AND GO JOBS FOR OUR MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX, WHICH HAVE BEEN CRITICAL FOR OUR ECONOMY AND FOR OUR CITIZENS.

THE OTHER THING I THINK PEOPLE DON'T KNOW, AND THINK ABOUT, IS EUROPEAN COUNTRIES HAVE TAKEN IN MILLIONS OF UKRAINIAN MIGRANTS WHO HAVE LEFT FOR SAFETY AND SECURITY FOR THEIR CHILDREN, FOR THEIR GRANDPARENTS, AND ALL OF THE COUNTRIES WHO HAVE TAKEN IN THOSE MIGRANTS ARE DOING THAT AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE AND HELPED THEM TO GET JOBS, HELPED THEM TO GET SCHOOLING AND HEALTH CARE, ALL AT THEIR OWN EXPENSE.

AND NOBODY THINKS ABOUT THE COST TO EUROPE IN THAT REGARD EITHER.

>> AGAIN.

ON COST, PRESIDENT TRUMP, AS WE KNOW, IS TRANSACTIONAL.

SOME PEOPLE SAY, HE ALWAYS DOES TALK IN TERMS OF DOLLARS AND CENTS, WHAT HE THINKS HE SHOULD BE REPAID.

SO AGAIN USING THIS $300 BILLION FIGURE, HE SAYS HE WANTS TO GET THAT BACK FROM UKRAINE IN THEIR RARE EARTH MINERALS.

AND WE UNDERSTAND THAT, YOU KNOW, HIS PEOPLE WENT TO KYIV AND ESSENTIALLY PUT DOWN A PIECE OF PAPER FOR ZELENSKYY TO SIGN IT OR LEAVE IT, DEMANDING A 50% EQUITY IN THAT IN PERPETUITY, ACCORDING TO VARIOUS REPORTS.

AND ZELENSKYY SAID NO.

HE CAN'T SELL HIS COUNTRY AND TALKED ABOUT, IT'S A COLONIAL ERA STYLE OF DOING BUSINESS.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

I KNOW THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION ALSO WANTED TO DO SOME KIND OF DEAL WITH UKRAINE ON RARE EARTH MINERALS AND THEY SAVED THAT FOR WHEN TRUMP COMES IN.

>> I DO THINK THAT SOMETHING COULD GET WORKED OUT.

BUT 50% IN PERPETUITY, IF THE REPORTS ARE RIGHT, I KNOW WHAT NOT ONLY RARE EARTH MINERALS BUT OTHER ECONOMIC GOODS FROM UKRAINE WAS ABSURD.

IT WAS RIGHT IN MY VIEW FOR UKRAINE TO SAY, NO, THAT WON'T WORK.

BUT THEY DIDN'T CLOSE THE DOOR ON ANYTHING.

IT IS A NEGOTIATION.

AND WE ALL KNOW THAT TRUMP REALLY APPROACHES LIFE TRANSACTIONALLY AS A BUSINESSMAN.

HE BELIEVES THAT IN MANY WAYS, FOREIGN POLICY IS LIKE BUILDING A BUILDING IN NEW YORK.

YOU'RE TOUGH, YOU NEGOTIATE HARD, YOU DEAL WITH THE POLITICS, YOU TRY TO GET SOMETHING FOR AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE FROM YOUR SIDE OF THE DEAL.

IF THE DEAL DOESN'T WORK, YOU GO ON TO ANOTHER BUILDING.

HERE, IT'S NOT SO EASY.

FOREIGN POLICY, NATIONAL SECURITY, DOESN'T WORK.

IN WAY.

I HOPE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS LEARNED THAT FROM HIS FIRST PRESIDENCY WHEN HE TRIED TO DEAL WITH KIM JONG-UN IN A TRANSACTIONAL MANNER.

BUT ZELENSKYY WAS VERY CALM AND SAID, NO, THIS WON'T WORK.

HE'S LIVING IN DISINFORMATION.

BUT ZELENSKYY HAS NOT CLOSED THE DOOR.

HE KNOWS THAT THE FATE OF HIS COUNTRY IS AT STAKE HERE.

HAVING FOUGHT, LOST SO MANY LIVES, GONE THROUGH SO MUCH TRAGEDY IN UKRAINE.

UKRAINIANS ARE EXTRAORDINARILY RESILIENT.

ANYONE WHO HAS VISITED THERE DURING THE WAR AS I HAVE UNDERSTANDS THE EXTRAORDINARY COURAGE, RESILIENCY, STAMINA AND BELIEF IN FREEDOM THAT UKRAINIANS HAVE.

SO I'M BETTING ON UKRAINE.

>> WENDY SHERMAN.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>>> WE TURN NOW TO ISRAEL AS IT PREPARES FOR THE DIFFICULTY OF RECEIVING THE BODIES OF FOUR HOSTAGES ON THURSDAY.

HAMAS SAYS AMONGST THEM WILL BE THE YOUNG BIBAS CHILDREN WHO HAVE BECOME A TRAGIC NATIONAL SYMBOL OF THE HORRORS OF OCTOBER 7th AND THE ENSUING CATASTROPHIC WAR ON GAZA.

THE CEASE-FIRE STILL HOLDS AND ISRAELI OFFICIALS SAY NEGOTIATIONS FOR THE SECOND PHASE OF ALL OF THIS WILL BEGIN THIS WEEK.

IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK THOUGH, ISRAEL CONTINUES ITS RAIDS AND MILITARY OPERATIONS, FURTHER DISPLACING THOUSANDS, ACCORDING TO THE U.N., AT LEAST 40,000 PALESTINIANS HAVE BEEN DISPLACED THERE BY THE IDEA, SINCE THIS JANUARY.

SO WHAT IS THE MOOD AMONGST ORDINARY ISRAELIS?

RUTH MARGALIT IS A CONTRIBUTING WRITER FOR THE "NEW YORK TIMES" MAGAZINE AND SHE'S JOINING ME FROM TEL AVIV.

WELCOME TO THE PRATH, RUTH.

LET ME START BY ASKING YOU.

EVERYBODY IS PREPARING FOR THIS DAY WHICH WILL BE TOMORROW, TO RECEIVE THE BODIES THIS TIME OF ISRAELIS WHO HAVE BEEN HELD FOR 15 MONTHS IN HAMAS CAPTIVITY.

HOW ARE THEY GOING TO BE ABLE TO DEAL AND REACT WITH WHAT THEY EXPECT TO BE THE TWO LITTLE CHILDREN OF THE BIBAS FAMILY?

>> I EXPECT THAT TOMORROW WILL BE A REAL DAY OF MOURNING HERE IN ISRAEL.

AND IT'S QUITE A SHIFT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THIS CEASE-FIRE AGREEMENT.

IT IS ACTUALLY ONE MONTH AGO TODAY THAT THE AGREEMENT WENT INTO EFFECT AND WE SAW THE FIRST RELEASE OF HOSTAGES.

AND AT FIRST, THERE WAS THIS KIND OF GREAT SENSE OF EUPHORIA ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

YOU SAW THE FEMALE HOSTAGES COMING OUT, REUNITED WITH THEIR FAMILIES, YOU KNOW, JOYOUS OCCASIONS.

THERE WERE WATCH PARTIES ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

PEOPLE FLOCKED TO THE SQUARE IN TEL AVIV THAT HAS BEEN REBRANDED, NOW KNOWN AS HOSTAGES SQUARE, AND KIND OF WATCHING THESE REUNIONS.

THE SENSE OF EUPHORIA GRADUALLY CHANGED OVER THE NEXT, YOU KNOW, SEVERAL WEEKS AS MORE HOSTAGES STARTED COMING OUT AND WE SAW THE MALE HOSTAGES BEGINNING TO COME OUT.

AND SOME OF THEM CAME OUT AND REALLY SORT OF SHOCKED THEIR FAMILIES AND SHOCKED ISRAELIS WHO WATCHED THEIR RELEASES.

THE STATE THAT THEY CAME OUT LOOKING EMACIATED.

REPORTS STARTED TRICKLING OUT OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS THAT THEY HAD BEEN CHAINED, THAT THEY HAD BEEN TORTURED, THAT THEY HAD UNDERGONE FORCED STARVATION.

THESE WERE THINGS THAT WERE SORT OF KNOWN IN ISRAEL.

THAT THIS WAS THE STATE SOME OF THE HOSTAGES WERE IN.

I THINK BEING SORT OF FACED WITH THAT REALITY, THE EUPHORIA STARTED EBBING.

NOW IT WAS REPLACED BY A GREAT SENSE OF ALARM AND CONCERN.

SO THAT'S WHY YOU STARTED SEEING THIS PUSH FOR AN EXPEDITED RELEASE AND ACTUALLY, THIS WEEKEND WILL SEE SIX HOSTAGES RETURNING INSTEAD OF THREE.

THIS IS BECAUSE OF THE SENSE OF SUDDEN URGENCY.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, SO EUPHORIA REPLACED BY A KIND OF ALARM AND CONCERN.

ALSO, TO BE REPLACED BY A GREAT SENSE OF SADNESS TOMORROW WHEN SUDDENLY FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE THE RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES WILL SEE BODY BAGS, COFFINS COMING HOME, AND THE TWO BIBAS CHILDREN AND THEIR MOTHER, SHIRI BIBAS, APPARENTLY COMING NOME BODY BAGS.

>> ISRAEL ITSELF I DON'T BELIEVE HAS CONFIRMED THE MANNER OF THEIR DEATH OR MAYBE EVEN THEIR DEATH, I'M NOT SURE.

CERTAINLY HAMAS SAYS THE BIBAS FAMILY WAS KILLED IN AN ISRAELI STRIKE.

AGAIN, ISRAEL HASN'T TALKED ABOUT IT AND I WONDER WHETHER THEY MIGHT DO FORENSICS AND POST MORTEMS AFTERWARDS.

IN THE MEANTIME, ALL OF THIS PERSONAL HORROR IS HAPPENING AGAINST A POLITICAL MOVE IN TERMS OF THE CEASE-FIRE AND THE FACT THAT THERE IS GOING TO BE A PHASE TWO.

SO THE QUESTION IS, GIVEN EVERYTHING YOU'VE JUST THAT, ARE ISRAELIS READY FOR PHASE TWO?

THE U.S. MIDDLE EAST ENVOY SAYS IT WILL ABSOLUTELY HAPPEN.

WE WON'T LEAVE ANY HOSTAGES BEHIND.

AND APPARENTLY POLLS IN ISRAEL SHOW A MAJORITY WANT PHASE TWO TO HAPPEN.

WHAT DID THEY VIEW AS PHASE TWO?

WHAT IS PHASE TWO?

>> WELL, THERE'S OVERWHELMING SUPPORT FOR PHASE TWO TO HAPPEN.

OVER 70% OF ISRAELIS WANT TO SEE THIS DEAL THROUGH.

WHICH MEANS ALL THE HOSTAGES OUT AND A COMPLETE CEASE-FIRE, A PERMANENT CEASE-FIRE IN GAZA.

THIS IS SOMETHING THE ISRAELIS ARE WILLING, YOU KNOW, WILLING TO HAVE HAPPEN IN ORDER FOR THE HOSTAGES TO COME HOME AND FOR, REALLY, FOR THIS NIGHTMARE TO END.

AND THERE IS A GREAT UNCERTAINTY AS TO WHETHER THE GOVERNMENT, WHETHER NETANYAHU IS COMMITTED TO THE SECOND PHASE WHICH I THINK IS ALSO PART OF WHY YOU SAW THIS GREAT SENSE OF URGENCY TO COMPLETE THE FIRST PHASE BECAUSE IT WAS UNCLEAR WHETHER EVEN THAT WILL HAPPEN.

SO NOW THERE IS THIS CLOUD OF UNCERTAINTY THAT NEGOTIATIONS FOR THE SECOND PHASE WERE SUPPOSED TO START ALREADY.

AND THEY ARE SORT OF DRAGGING ON.

AT FIRST, STEVE WITKOFF, PRESIDENT TRUMP'S MIDDLE EAST ENVOY, SAID THE SECOND PHASE WILL HAPPEN.

AND YOU SAW A STATEMENT AT FIRST SAYING, WELL, THE CABINET WILL DISCUSS THE TERMS OF THE SECOND PHASE.

THE CABINET WILL CONVENE.

IT WILL DISCUSS IT.

AND THEN 40 MINUTES LATER, IT RELEASED ANOTHER STATEMENT.

SO ANOTHER STATEMENT FROM NETANYAHU SAYING THERE IS A DELEGATION THAT WILL COME OUT AND GO TO CAIRO TO DISCUSS THIS AND IMPLEMENT THE SECOND PHASE.

SO SORT OF THE AMERICANS PERHAPS GAVE THIS A PUSH.

IT IS UNCLEAR WHETHER NETANYAHU WANTS TO SEE THE SECOND PHASE BECAUSE IT WILL MEAN A CESSATION OF HOSTILITIES AND A PERMANENT CEASE-FIRE WHICH IS SOMETHING THAT THOUGH ISRAELIS OVERWHELMINGLY WANT, OF COURSE, HIS FAR-RIGHT COALITION PARTNERS ARE UNWILLING TO SEE HAPPEN.

SO RIGHT NOW, IT'S REALLY A QUESTION OF, WHO DOES NETANYAHU FEAR MORE?

DOES HE FEAR TRUMP MORE?

OR ONE OF THE FAR RIGHT COALITION PARTNERS.

>> AND IT SUGGESTS THAT IT IS DOING BETTER.

DO YOU THINK HE HAS THIS, EVEN IF IT MEANS THE FAR RIGHT MIGHT DROP OFF OR NOT?

>> THE PARTY IS DOING SLIGHTLY BETTER, IT'S TRUE.

IT IS ALSO TELLING THAT RIGHT NOW THE PERSON LEADING AGAINST NETANYAHU IN THE POLLS IS SOMEONE WHO IS COMPLETELY OUT OF THE POLITICAL SYSTEM.

THAT'S NAFTALI BENNETT, THE FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL.

I THINK NETANYAHU FEELS HE HAS A BIT OF A LEEWAY KNEW.

HE'S GAINED A BIT IN THE POLLS, SORT OF GRADUALLY SINCE OCTOBER 7th WHEN HE WAS REALLY, REALLY IN A POOR STATE.

AND HE'S MANAGED TO GAIN SOME OF THAT SUPPORT BACK.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I THINK HE CAME BACK FROM WASHINGTON WITH A GREAT SENSE OF KIND OF RELIEF AND TRIUMPH OVER TRUMP'S PLAN FOR GAZA.

THE SENSE THAT THE ADMINISTRATION, THE U.S. ADMINISTRATION WAS WITH ISRAEL AND PERHAPS NOT GOING TO PUSH THIS PERMANENT CEASE-FIRE.

AND SEVERAL DAYS AFTER HE RETURNED TO ISRAEL FROM WASHINGTON, I THINK HE HAD AN UNDERSTANDING.

THERE WAS THIS SORT OF SUDDEN REALIZATION IN ISRAEL THAT WITKOFF, THAT THEY WERE SERIOUS ABOUT SEEING THIS DEAL THROUGH.

AND I'VE SPOKEN TO MANY OF THE HOSTAGES' FAMILIES WHOSE LOVED ONES ARE NOT INCLUDED IN THE FIRST PHASE OF THE DEAL.

AND THEY ARE JUST IN AGONY OVER WHETHER THE SECOND PHASE WILL HAPPEN OR NOT.

SO THIS ISN'T JUST SORT OF SEMANTICS OR LOGISTICS OVER, WE TEND TO SAY FIRST STAGE, SECOND STAGE.

IT SOUNDS VERY BUREAUCRATIC.

BUT REALLY IT IS LIFE AND DEATH FOR THESE FAMILIES.

AND I THINK ALSO FOR THE PALESTINIANS WHO, THE LAST THING THEY WANT, IS TO SEE THE IDF BACK IN GAZA.

THERE HAS BEEN THIS GRADUAL WITHDRAWAL OF IDF TROOPS.

THEY ARE WAITING ON THE PERIMETER OF GAZA.

AND THE SECOND PHASE IS SUPPOSED TO SEE THEM COMPLETELY WITHDRAWING.

ALSO, FROM THE PHILADELPHIA CORRIDOR WHICH IS EGYPT, GAZA.

SO WHILE ISRAEL HAS SECURITY CONCERNS ABOUT THAT, THERE IS THE PUBLIC OVERWHELMINGLY SUPPORTS THIS.

AND NETANYAHU NOW IS REALLY IN A BIND AS TO WHETHER HE LISTENS TO HIS PUBLIC OR WHETHER HE IS STILL BEHOLDEN TO THESE EXTREMIST MINISTERS WHO HE NEEDS TO PRESERVE HIS COALITION.

AND HE'S VERY MUCH CONCERNED ABOUT HIS OWN SORT OF PERSONAL SURVIVAL.

>> RUTH, I WANT TO ASK YOU.

IT IS ALL SO HORRIBLY TANGLED UP.

THE IDEA OF THE END OF THE WAR.

IT IS A MATTER OF LIFE AND DEATH FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE WAITING FOR THEIR LOVED ONES TO BE RELEASED.

IN TERMS OF THE SO-CALLED TRUMP PROPOSAL FOR GAZA, WHICH MOST ANALYSTS DON'T BELIEVE HAS A CHANCE IN HECK, INCLUDING FORMER PRIME MINISTER -- INCLUDING, EXPELLING PALESTINIANS, CREATING A RIVIERA THERE.

THE RIGHT WING IS OBVIOUSLY EUPHORIC.

THE MILITARY ANALYST HAS WRITTEN, THE BOMB THAT TRUMP THREW DURING INTERNET INTERNET'S VISIT BY PROPOSING THE PALESTINIANS, QUOTE, VOLUNTARILY LEAVE EN MASSE MADE THE COALITION EUPHORIC.

TO SOME ARMY OFFICERS' SHOCK, THEY HAVE SAID HAS THE ONE-TIME OPPORTUNITY TO ENABLE HISTORIC MOVES LIKE OUSTING THE PALESTINIANS FROM GAZA, AND THAT OPPORTUNITY, THEY SAY, DWARFS THE IMPORTANCE OF SAVING EVERY LAST HOSTAGE.

SO DO YOU BELIEVE IN ALL YOUR CONVERSATIONS, RUTH, WITH ISRAELIS, THAT THEY SUPPORT THIS, WHAT IS EUPHEMISTICALLY CALLED VOLUNTARY EXPULSION OF PALESTINIANS?

WHAT OTHERS CALL ETHNIC CLEANSING OF PALESTINIANS FROM GAZA?

>> WELL, I'M SORT OF EMBARRASSED TO SAY THAT THERE IS, THAT THERE IS SUPPORT FOR THIS PLAN.

70% OF ISRAELIS, ACCORDING TO A CHANNEL 12 POLL IN ISRAEL, SUPPORT TRUMP'S PLAN FOR MASS DISPLACEMENT OF GAZANS.

I SHOULD ALSO NOTE THAT HALF OF THE RESPONDENTS ALSO SAID THEY DON'T THINK IT IS PRACTICAL.

SO I THINK THERE IS THE SENSE THAT ISRAELIS KIND OF SUPPORT THE SENTIMENT OF IT.

BUT EVERYONE KNOWS THAT IT IS NOT GOING TO BE PUT INTO PRACTICE.

AND WHEN I SPOKE TO SEVERAL ISRAELIS WHO, YOU KNOW, WHO SEEM TO SUPPORT THIS PLAN, WHAT I SAID TO THEM WAS SORT OF, YOU KNOW, THEY PRESENT THIS AS THE KIND OF BENEVOLENT, A GOOD-WILL GESTURE.

EVERYONE WHO WANTS TO LEAVE WILL HAVE A CHANCE TO LEAVE GAZA AND COME BACK AND THIS SORT OF HAZY PLAN.

BUT WHAT I SAID IS, YOU KNOW, JUST REPLACE THE WORD PALESTINIAN WITH JEWS FOR A MINUTE AND YOU WILL SEE HOW PROBLEMATIC IT IS.

WHEN YOU HAVE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES CALLING FOR, YOU KNOW, A POPULATION SAYING THE JEWS, LET'S SAY, JEWS CAN LEAVE IF THEY WANT AND THEY CAN COME BACK.

CALLING FOR POPULATION TRANSFERS.

ONCE YOU START GETTING INTO THIS LANGUAGE OF POPULATION TRANSFER AND MASS DISPLACEMENT, IT IS A SLIPPERY SLOPE AND IT SORT OF RECALLS BACK EVER DARK TIMES IN HISTORY.

AND I DON'T THINK THAT WAS THE INTENTION.

WE HAVE TO BE VERY CAREFUL ABOUT THAT.

AND EVEN SORT OF PUTTING THE MORAL ASPECT ASIDE HERE, YOU KNOW, THERE IS JUST A SENSE THAT THIS IS TOTALLY IMPRACTICAL AT A TIME WHEN SOLUTIONS ARE URGENTLY NEEDED.

WE HAVE ISRAELI HOSTAGES WHO ARE UNDERGROUND IN GAZA IN SORT OF TERRIBLE CONDITIONS, AND REALLY APPARENTLY WASTING AWAY.

AND YOU HAVE PALESTINIANS WHO ARE COMING BACK.

YOU KNOW, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS WHO ARE RETURNING TO HOMES THAT HAVE BEEN DEMOLISHED, THAT DON'T EXIST, WHO HAVE LOST LOVED ONES, WHO ARE INJURED AND EXHAUSTED AND SHED.

NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR DREAMS.

NOW IS THE TIME FOR SOLUTIONS.

>> GIVEN BRIEFLY WITH WHAT WE'VE BEEN DISCUSSING, THE U.N. SAYS THE MOST PALESTINIANS SINCE THE '67 WAR HAVE FLED OR BEEN EXPELLED FROM THE WEST BANK.

SOME 40,000, ACCORDING TO THE U.N., FORCIBLY DISPLACED SINCE JANUARY.

AND I WANT TO KNOW FROM YOU AS A JOURNALIST, JOURNALIST TO JOURNALIST, WHAT ARE THE ISRAELI PEOPLE REALLY SEEING ABOUT WHAT'S HAPPENING IN GAZA AND ON THE WEST BANK?

AND IF THEY ARE SEEING, BECAUSE OF THIS TRAUMA, DO THEY CARE?

>> ACTUALLY, THEY DON'T.

THEY SEE VERY, VERY LITTLE ABOUT WHAT IS HAPPENING IN THE WEST BANK.

WHEN YOU OPEN THE NEWS IN ISRAEL, IT'S ALL ABOUT, YOU KNOW, RIGHT NOW IT IS THE HOSTAGES.

IT'S GAZA.

THE EYES ARE VERY MUCH THERE.

BEFORE THAT, IT WAS ALSO IN LEBANON.

SO THE NORTHERN BORDER, YOU KNOW, THE GAZA BORDER, AND THE WEST BANK GETS SORT OF RELEGATED, REALLY RELEGATED TO THE SIDELINES, WHICH IS WHY I THINK NETANYAHU'S FAR RIGHT PARTNERS ARE REALLY KIND OF FEELING TRIUMPHANT AT THE MOMENT AND WANT TO SEE THE WAR IN GAZA CONTINUE BECAUSE THIS KIND OF GIVES THEM A, THIS GIVES THEM A SORT OF FREE PASS IN THE WEST BANK.

AND WE'VE SEEN OUTRAGEOUS STATEMENTS ABOUT ANNEXATION AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

SO THEY'RE VERY TRIUMPHANT THERE.

>> YEAH.

INDEED, TRUMP SAYS THAT HE WILL PRONOUNCE ON THAT IN THE NEXT SEVERAL WEEKS.

IN ANY EVENT, THANK YOU SO MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US ON WHAT WILL BE A DIFFICULT DAY.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>>> MEANTIME, IN THE UNITED STATES, A FEDERAL JUDGE IS ASKING THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO EXPLAIN WHY PROSECUTORS HAVE SUDDENLY DISMISSED THE CORRUPTION INDICTMENT AGAINST NEW YORK CITY MAYOR ERIC ADAMS.

MULTIPLE PROSECUTORS HAVE RESIGNED IN PROTEST AMID CONCERNS THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION STRUCK A DEAL IN EXCHANGE FOR ADAMS' COOPERATION IN ENFORCING IMMIGRATION LAWS.

BRENDAN BALLOU JOINS ME TO DISCUSS THIS.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

SO FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> YOU'RE A FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR AND YOU PROSECUTED SOME OF THE JANUARY 6th CASES.

CASES OF PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, ASSAULTED THE CAPITOL IN AN EFFORT TO INTERFERE WITH THE COUNTING OF THE ELECTION RESULTS, OR THE VALIDATING OF THE ELECTION RESULTS.

FIRST OF ALL, CAN I ASK YOU HOW YOU GOT THOSE CASES?

THE CASES THAT YOU WORKED ON, HOW DID THEY COME TO YOU?

>> SURE.

IT WAS AN ACCIDENT.

MY PRACTICE PRIMARILY WAS IN WHITE COLLAR CRIME GOING AFTER ANTI-TRUST VIOLATORS.

THE CALL WENT OUT WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT.

JUSTICE THAT THERE WAS A DESPERATE NEED FOR PROSECUTORS TO GO AFTER AND PROSECUTE THESE JANUARY 6th RIOTERS.

I RAISED MY HAND.

AS MUCH AS I WOULD LIKE TO THINK IT WAS BECAUSE OF MY PROSECUTORIAL GENIUS, IT WAS JUST A MASSIVE NEED WITHIN THE DEPARTMENT.

>> DO YOU REMEMBER HOW YOU FOUND OUT THAT THE PRESIDENT WAS PARDONING THESE PEOPLE EN MASSE?

I KNOW HE TALKED ABOUT THIS DURING THE CAMPAIGN.

WHEN THE DAY CAME THAT HE ACTUALLY DID IT, MAKING NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO ENGAGED IN ACTS OF VIOLENCE AND PEOPLE WHO ENGAGED IN MISDEMEANORS, DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT YOUR REACTION WAS?

>> YEAH.

IT WAS ENORMOUS DISAPPOINTMENT AND FEAR FOR, PRIMARILY, THE OFFICERS THAT WERE ASSAULTED AT THE CAPITOL THAT DAY WHO I BELIEVE ARE GOING TO BE THE TARGETS OF, YOU KNOW, POTENTIAL MILITIA OR VIGILANTE VIOLENCE.

MAYBE THIS WAS NAIVE OF ME BUT I HAD ASSUMED THAT EVEN THE PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE CERTAIN POLITICAL RESTRAINTS ON PARDONING PEOPLE THAT ASSAULTED OFFICERS, THAT WERE INVOLVED IN, YOU KNOW, STAGING WEAPONS NEAR THE CAPITOL IN ANTICIPATION OF POTENTIAL WARFARE.

I THOUGHT THERE WOULD BE CONSTRAINTS ON EVEN THE PRESIDENT FOR PARDONING THOSE FOLKS, OR COMMUTING THEIR SENTENCES.

OBVIOUSLY THERE WASN'T.

>> WE'RE ABOUT A MONTH INTO THIS ADMINISTRATION.

THE LATEST INCIDENT INVOLVING THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IS THIS EFFORT TO PERSUADE THE PROSECUTORS IN NEW YORK DROP THE CORRUPTION CHARGES THAT HAD BEEN LEVELLED AGAINST NEW YORK CITY'S MAYOR, ERIC ADAMS.

IN RESPONSE TO THIS, AT LEAST SEVEN PROSECUTORS HAVE RESIGNED SO FAR.

WHAT CONCERNS YOU ABOUT THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT IS A UNIQUE CONCERN.

SOMEWHAT DIFFERENT FROM THE CONCERN AROUND PARDONING THE JANUARY 6th RIOTERS.

I BELIEVE THAT THE PURPOSE OF THE JANUARY 6th PARDONS WAS TO EMPOWER VIGILANTES OR MILITIAS THAT WOULD BE LOYAL TO THE PRESIDENT BUT ULTIMATELY UNACCOUNTABLE TO THE LAW.

I THINK WITH THE ERIC ADAMS QUID PRO QUO, THE AMBITION HERE IS TO EXPLICITLY POLITICIZE CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS, AND TO WAIVE THE THREAT OF PROSECUTIONS FOR POLICY GOALS.

I WOULDN'T SAY THAT IS UNPRECEDENTED BUT CERTAINLY SOMETHING WE HAVEN'T HAD TO EXPERIENCE FOR MOST OF OUR LIFETIMES.

THAT SEEMS TO BE THE GOAL OF THIS ADMINISTRATION AND IT SEEMS LIKE IT WILL BE A PART OF OUR FUTURE.

>> LET ME SAY FOR THE RECORD THAT ERIC ADAMS HAS CONSISTENTLY DENIED THAT HE TOOK BRIBES IN EXCHANGE FOR FAVORS.

THAT'S THE ORIGINAL UNDERLYING CHARGE.

THE SUBSEQUENT ISSUE AT HAND HERE IS THE ALLEGATION THAT THERE WAS A DISCUSSION WITH THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT THAT HE WOULD BE ACCOMMODATING OF THE PRESIDENT'S POLICY GOALS, SPECIFICALLY AROUND IMMIGRATION, IN EXCHANGE FOR DROPPING THESE CHARGES.

SO ACTING DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL SAYS THAT THE DECISION TO SEEK DISMISSAL OF THE CASE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH ITS STRENGTH.

HE ARGUES IT WAS PRITALLY MOTIVATED AND IT WAS ING MR. ADAMS' ABILITY TO COOPERATE WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP'S POLICIES.

AS NEAR AS YOU CAN UNDERSTAND, IS THERE ANY EVIDENCE THAT YOU ARE AWARE OF THAT THE PROSECUTION OF AIRING ADAMS WAS POLITICALLY MOTIVATED?

>> I BELIEVE THE LAWYERS WHO WERE INVOLVED LAID OUT THE CASE FOR WHY WASN'T EXCEPTIONALLY CLEAR.

THE STRONGEST EVIDENCE THAT THIS WASN'T POLITICALLY MOTIVATED IS THAT ERIC ADAMS' OWN LAWYERS DIDN'T BRING THE CHARGE OF SELECTIVE PROSECUTION.

IT SUGGESTS THIS WAS NOT A POLITICALLY MOTIVATED PROSECUTION BUT ONE RATHER GUIDED BY THE FACTS IN THE LAW AND THAT IT IS IN FACT DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL OR ACTING DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL WHO IS TRYING TO POLITICIZE THIS PROCESS.

>> A MOTION THAT WAS FILED BY THE ACTING DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL.

THE GOVERNMENT REQUESTED THAT ADAMS' CASE BE DISMISSED WITHOUT PREJUDICE.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT FOR LAY PEOPLE?

DOES THAT MEAN THAT IT CAN BE BROUGHT AGAIN IN THE FUTURE?

>> YOU'RE RIGHT.

SPECIFICALLY THE CASE COULD BE BROUGHT AGAIN IN THE FUTURE.

PRACTICALLY, IT MEANS THAT THIS ADMINISTRATION WOULD HAVE A MEANS BY WHICH TO EXTORT THE MAYOR IN THE FUTURE IF HE FAILS TO COMPLY WITH THIS ADMINISTRATION'S POLICY OBJECTIVES.

>> THAT'S A STRONG WORD.

EXTORT IS A STRONG WORD.

DO YOU THINK THAT ESSENTIALLY THE PURPOSE IS TO HOLD THE CASE OVER HIS HEAD TO MAKE SURE THAT HE'S COMPLIANT WITH THEIR OBJECTIVES?

>> TO THAT HOMAN ON FOX NEWS THE OTHER DAY, AN ADMINISTRATION OFFICIAL, SUGGESTED AS MUCH.

SO I THINK THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN PRETTY CLEAR THAT THAT IS WHAT THE OBJECTIVE IS.

>> HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS?

TO SEE SEVEN PROSECUTORS RESIGN, INCLUDING THE PERSON WHO WAS NAMED AS THE ACTING HEAD OF THE OFFICE, WHO GO IS HERSELF, HAS CLERKED FOR A CONSERVATIVE SUPREME COURT JUSTICE.

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS WITH THIS NUMBER OF PROSECUTORS RESIGNING OVER A CASE?

>> I CERTAINLY HAVEN'T.

YOU KNOW, THE HISTORICAL ANALOGY THAT FOLKS ARE POINTING TOWARD IS THE SATURDAY NIGHT MASSACRE IN THE NIXON ADMINISTRATION WHEN MULTIPLE SENIOR DEPARTMENT.

JUSTICE OFFICIALS RESIGNED, RATHER THAN FIRE ARCHIBALD COX.

I THINK THAT THIS IS DIFFERENT AND ARGUABLY MUCH MORE SERIOUS THAN THAT SITUATION.

THE SATURDAY NIGHT MASSACRE WAS ABOUT THE PRESIDENT TRYING TO PRESERVE HIS OWN POLITICAL CAREER.

THIS IS AN ATTEMPT TO DROP THE PROSECUTION IN ORDER TO ADVANCE A POLICY AGENDA AND SUGGESTS A FUNDAMENTAL RETHINKING ABOUT WHAT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE AND WHAT CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS SHOULD EVEN BE FOR.

AND TO REALLY QUESTION THE VERY NATURE OF THE RULE OF LAW IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO IN THAT SENSE, I THINK THAT THIS IS QUITE LITERALLY UNPRECEDENTED.

>> SO NOW, JUDGES OVERSEEING THE ADAMS CASE HAVE ASKED THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO EXPLAIN THE DECISION TO DROP THE CHARGES.

HOW DO YOU READ THAT?

DOES THAT SIGNAL THEY'RE NOT JUST ACCEPTING THE DECISION AT FACE VALUE?

THE OTHER QUESTION I WOULD HAVE HERE IS, WHAT RECOURSE DO THEY HAVE?

THEY CAN ASK BUT -- >> YEAH.

SO WHEN THE DEPARTMENT MOVES TO DISMISS A CRIMINAL CHARGE, THE COURT NEEDS TO ACCEPT THAT.

AND MUST EXERCISE INDEPENDENT JUDGMENT IN DOING SO.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAN BE CONSIDERED IS WHETHER THERE IS ESSENTIALLY A CORRUPT QUID PRO QUO HAPPENING IN DROPPING THAT CHARGE.

ACTING U.S. ATTORNEY SASSOON LAID OUT EXACTLY THIS ISSUE IN HER MEMO TO ATTORNEY GENERAL BONDI DESCRIBING THE PROBLEMS WITH DOING SO.

ONE OF THE MOST RESPECTED YOUNG JUDGES IN THE UNITED STATES ASSOCIATION I HAVE LITTLE DOUBT THAT HE WILL APPLY SCRUPULOUS ATTENTION TO FIGURING OUT WHETHER OR NOT THESE CHARGES CAN OR SHOULD BE DROPPED.

>> BUT DOES THE JUDGE HAVE AUTHORITY TO REINSTATE THEM IS THE QUESTION.

THERE IS AN ASSUMPTION THAT THE PROSECUTOR WANTS TO DROP CHARGES, THEY'RE GENERALLY DROPPED.

ISN'T THAT THE CASE?

DOES THE JUDGE'S JUDGMENT SUPERSEDE THAT?

>> GENERALLY, THE JUDGES, OF COURSE, DEFER TO PROSECUTORS IN THESE SORTS OF THINGS.

ONCE AGAIN, THE JUDGES ARE NOT POWERLESS HERE.

SO WE'RE ENTERING ALMOST UNCHARTED TERRITORY HERE.

BUT IT IS POSSIBLE THAT HE COULD REJECT THE MOTION TO DISMISS THE CHARGES WITHOUT PREJUDICE.

AND POTENTIALLY DIRECT THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE TO CONTINUE THE PROSECUTION.

I THINK THERE WILL BE INTERESTING LEGAL QUESTIONS.

THE ANSWER IS I DON'T KNOW WHETHER HE CAN APPOINT A SPECIAL COUNSEL OR INDEPENDENT PARTY.

>> I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO POINT OUT THAT THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO SUPPORT WHAT THE PRESIDENT IS DOING, OR WHO DON'T THINK ABOUT IT VERY MUCH BECAUSE THEY DON'T THINK IT AFFECTS THEM.

HAVING SAID THAT, THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T AGREE WITH WHAT HE'S DOING, THE PEOPLE WHO FIND IT AS YOU DO, VIOLATING THE RULE OF LAW OF STANDARDS THAT WE HAVE ADHERED TO, ET CETERA, ET CETERA, HAVE BEEN LOOKING TO THE COURTS.

WHAT MECHANISM EXISTS IF THE PRESIDENT DECIDES HE WON'T ADHERE TO COURT ORDERS?

WHAT HAPPENS THEN?

>> THERE'S BEEN INTERESTING AND HELPFUL INFORMATION NO.

A SERIES OF ACTIONS THAT THE COURTS AND THE INSTITUTIONS SURROUNDING THE COURT CAN TAKE.

EACH DECISION BY THIS ADMINISTRATION TO IGNORE A COURT ORDER COMES AT SOMETHING OF A REPUTATIONAL COST.

THE COST THAT MAY BE TO THE PUBLIC AS WELL AS THE LAWYERS WHO REMAIN INSIDE THE GOVERNMENT.

SO EVEN JUST IGNORING A COURT ORDER ISN'T COSTLESS FOR THIS ADMINISTRATION.

BUT WHEN THEY DO, A COURT CAN HOLD GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS IN CIVIL OR EVEN CRIMINAL CONTENT.

MAKE BAR REFERRALS TO THE ATTORNEYS THAT REPRESENT THE GOVERNMENT.

IN EXTREME CASES, COULD POTENTIALLY ORDER GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS TO BE JAILED.

NOW, THOSE SORTS OF STEPS MAY NOT PARTICULARLY CONSTRAIN THE PRESIDENT OR THE WORLD'S RICHEST MAN.

BUT THEY MAY WELL COULD NSTRAIN LINE LEVEL ATTORNEY THAT REMAINS AT SOME OF THESE AGENCIES.

IT MAY WELL CONSTRAIN THE LOWER OR MID LEVEL GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS THAT ARE NECESSARY TO IMPLEMENT SOME OF THESE POLICIES.

SO I THINK THAT THERE ARE PRACTICAL TOOLS THAT THE JUDICIARY HAS TO CONSTRAIN SOME OF THE WORST IMPULSE THAT'S THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN SHOWING THUS FAR.

>> LET'S TAKE A STEP BACK HERE AND LET'S ASK OVERALL, WHAT IS YOUR CONCERN ABOUT WHEN YOU TAKE ALL OF THESE ACTIONS TOGETHER, AND JUST A MATTER OF A COUPLE OF WEEKS.

A LOT OF PEOPLE LOOKING AT THIS MIGHT THINK, THESE RETECHARE TECHNICALITIES.

WHY DOES THIS MATTER?

SO FOR SOMEONE WHO HAS THAT PERSPECTIVE, WHO ISN'T SURE WHY ALL THIS MATTERS, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY?

>> YEAH.

YOU KNOW, FOR LAWYERS, THE IDEA OF THE RULE OF LAW ISN'T JUST AN EXPRESSION.

IT IS A VERY CONCRETE IDEA.

THE IDEA THAT DECISIONS ARE MADE NOT BECAUSE OF THE WHIMS OF AN INDIVIDUAL MAN OR WOMAN BUT BECAUSE OF PRECEDENT, PRINCIPLES, STATUTES AND THE CONSTITUTION.

WHAT THESE ACTIONS COLLECTIVELY SUGGEST IS A CONCERTED EFFORT BY THIS ADMINISTRATION TO END THE RULE OF LAW AND TO PUT THE POWER OF LAW IN THE HANDS OF ONE MAN OR JUST A HANDFUL OF MEN.

BUT IF THEY ARE SUCCESSFUL IN THAT, THAT WILL BE A DRAMATIC CHANGE IN HOW THE LAW OPERATES IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> WHAT IS INTERESTING IS THAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS TAKING THE POSITION THAT THESE OTHER ACTIONS ARE WHAT THEY ARE CALLING THE WEAPONIZATION OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

THEY ARE THE ONES SAYING THAT THEIR PREDECESSORS ARE THE PEOPLE WHO POLITICIZED THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

I'M THINKING HERE LIKE, THE ATTORNEY GENERAL PAM BONDI DEFENDED THE DECISION TO DROP THE CASE.

SHE SAYS SHE WAS ATTENDING THIS MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE THIS PAST WEEKEND AND SHE TOLD FOX NEWS, QUOTE, WE HAVE A RIGHT TO PROTECT AGAINST WEAPONIZATION IN NEW YORK AND EVERY STATE IN THIS COUNTRY.

SO HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> I THINK THIS ADMINISTRATION WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE THE NARRATIVE HERE TO BE A BATTLE BETWEEN THEM AND CAREER PROSECUTORS.

ESSENTIALLY, LY HE SAID, SHE S ABOUT WHO IS RIGHT.

IT'S A BIT OF A DISTRACTION.

FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON HERE, I WOULD ENCOURAGE THEM TO READ THE CHARGING MATERIALS IN THE ERIC ADAMS CASE.

UNDERSTAND WHAT THE SPECIFIC ALLEGATIONS WERE.

AND NOTICE THAT THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND ACTING DEPUTY ATTORNEY GENERAL, DID NOT SEEM TO BE CONTESTING THE UNDERLYING FACTS HERE, NOR, FOR THAT MATTER, WAS ERIC ADAMS CHALLENGING THIS AS A POLITICALLY MOTIVATED PROSECUTION.

THESE SEEM LIKE AFTER THE FACT JUSTIFICATIONS FOR AN ATTEMPT TO IN ESSENCE USE CRIMINAL LAW TO ACHIEVE POLICY OBJECTIVES.

>> YOU RESIGNED FROM THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, I THINK, A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, AS I RECALL.

WHY DO YOU HAVE DID YOU RESIGN?

>> I BELIEVE THAT THE PRESIDENT'S PARDONS, AS I MENTIONED, WERE GOING TO CREATE A NEW WAVE OF VIGILANTE VIOLENCE THAT THE UNITED STATES REALLY HAS NOT SEEN SINCE THE KKK.

I BELIEVE THAT THAT WAS A FACT THAT NEEDED TO GET OUT.

AND THAT THERE WAS LITTLE POINT IN ME SAYING, WITHIN THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT, TO TRY TO STOP SOME OF THIS ADMINISTRATION.

SO I DECIDED TO LEAVE AND TRY TO EXPLAIN THE PROBLEM AS CLEARLY AS I COULD.

>> DID YOU HAVE ANY CONCERNS ABOUT YOUR CAREER OR EVEN YOUR SAFETY?

>> I'M NOT PARTICULARLY CONCERNED ABOUT MY OWN SAFETY.

OR RATHER, I SHOULD SAY, I THINK THAT MANY PEOPLE ARE IN FAR GREATER DANGER THAN FOLKS LIKE MYSELF ARE.

I THINK THAT THE 140 OFFICERS THAT WERE ASSAULTED AT THE CAPITOL THAT DAY ARE UNDER SIGNIFICANT RISK FOR THEIR SAFETY.

I ALSO THINK THAT THE COMMUNITY THAT'S THIS ADMINISTRATION DEMONIZED ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL, MIGRANTS, TRANS PEOPLE, AND SO FORTH, THESE ARE THE COMMUNITIES THAT ARE MOST LIKELY TO BE THE INITIAL VICTIMS OF VIGILANTE OR MILITIA VIOLENCE.

AND IT THOSE ARE THE COMMUNITIES THAT WE NEED TO PAY THE MOST ATTENTION TO.

>> WHAT'S NEXT FOR YOU?

>> THERE ARE PRACTICAL CAREER THINGS.

IT WASN'T WHAT I NECESSARILY INTENDED BUT I THINK A LOT OF US KNOW NOW THAT THERE IS A FIGHT OVER THE HISTORY OF JANUARY 6th TO BE HAD.

THAT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO REALLY NEED THAT DAY TO BE FORGOTTEN FOR THEIR POLITICAL CAREERS TO SUCCEED.

AND I AND A NUMBER OF OTHER PEOPLE ARE ABSOLUTELY COMMITTED TO MAKING SURE THAT DAY ISN'T FORGOTTEN.

>> I'M WONDERING IF, AS A PERSON WHO CHOSE, SOME PEOPLE DON'T WANT TO BE PROSECUTORS BECAUSE THEY DON'T WANT TO BE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE GOVERNMENT, RIGHT?

IT'S A DECISION TO CHOOSE THAT.

AND I WONDER, IS THERE ANY PART OF THIS EXPERIENCE THAT HAS BEEN A CRISIS FOR YOU?

IT'S OBVIOUSLY A CAREER DISRUPTION.

IS THERE SOMETHING THAT MADE YOU QUESTION SOME THINGS THAT YOU THOUGHT YOU KNEW?

>> NO.

ABSOLUTELY NOT.

OBVIOUSLY THE CHALLENGE TO THE RULE OF LAW IS MORE SERIOUS THAN IT HAS BEEN IN, CERTAINLY IN MY LIFETIME IN THIS MOMENT.

BUT I THINK IT IS ALSO A REMINDER OF HOW IMPORTANT THE RULE OF LAW IS.

YOU KNOW, THE RESIGNATIONS THAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE PAST FEW DAYS, AND JUST TALKING TO MY FRIENDS AND FORMER COLLEAGUES WHO ARE STILL IN GOVERNMENT GIVE ME ENORMOUS FAITH WITH PROSECUTORS, LAWYERS, OTHER FOLKS IN GOVERNMENT WHO REALLY DO WANT TO SERVE IN THEIR INTEREST.

IT GIVES ME FAITH TO BELIEVE WE'LL ULTIMATELY BE SUCCESSFUL.

>> WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THAT?

>> WELL, THE FUNDAMENTAL ISSUE IS THAT FOR AN ADMINISTRATION TO ACCOMPLISH ANYTHING, THEY NEED TO CONVINCE THE REST OF THE GOVERNMENT TO ACT.

AND THE LESS POPULAR A POLICY IS, THE LESS LIKELY IT IS THAT THE GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO IMPLEMENT IT.

SO WHEN YOU SEE SORT OFF WAVE AFTER WAVE OF WHAT I WOULD ARGUE ARE ILLEGAL, UNPROFESSIONAL, OR UNETHICAL ACTIONS IMPLEMENTED IN A HAM-HANDED WAY, OR PROPOSED THAT WAY, I THINK IT MAKES THESE POLICIES VASTLY LESS POPULAR WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT MORE BROADLY AND THUS MUCH LESS LIKELY TO EVER HAPPEN.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR THE PROGRAM TONIGHT.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM NEW YORK.