>>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

>> THREE YEARS OF ALL-OUT WAR IN THE UKRAINE.

EUROPEAN LEADERS ARE IN KYIV AS UNCERTAINTY MOUNDS OVER PEACE NEGOTIATIONS.

WE HAVE THE LATEST.

>> IN THE FIGHT TO PRESERVE UKRAINE'S CULTURAL IDENTITY.

>> AND A POLITICAL SHAKEUP IN GERMANY AS THE FAR RIGHT SURGES AND MAINSTREAM CONSERVATIVES CLAIM VICTORY.

WHAT IT MEANS FOR EUROPEAN SECURITY AND RELATIONS WITH THE U.S. ALSO AHEAD.

>> I GREW UP WITH HITLER STORIES AND WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO BE A YOUNG JEWISH BOY LIVING OF KNOWN NAZIS.

>> WALTER ISAACSON WERE INTERVIEWS KENNETH ROTH, FORMER EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH ON HIS NEW BOOK, RIDING WRONGS.

>> CHARLES ROSENBLUM, PATRICIA YUAN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES AND OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA ZUCKERBERG, JEFFREY CATS AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION AND VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M IN NEW YORK SITTING IN.

EUROPEAN LEADERS ARE GATHERED IN KYIV TO MARK THE THIRD ANNIVERSARY OF RUSSIA'S WERE IN UKRAINE AND THIS IS MOSCOW LAUNCHED ONE OF THE LARGEST DRONE ATTACKS OF THE WAR ON SUNDAY.

A SIGN THAT EVEN AS PEACE TALKS ARE BREWING, THE WAR STILL GOES ON.

FOR PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, THE SHOW OF EUROPEAN SUPPORT COULD NOT COME AT A MORE CRUCIAL TIME AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP SHOCKED ALLIES BY ADOPTING RUSSIAN TALKING POINTS ON PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY CALLING HIM A DICTATOR AND FALSELY CLAIMING HE STARTED THE WAR.

NOW VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY SAID HE IS WILLING TO STEP ASIDE AS THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE IS ALLOWED TO JOIN NATO, A LONG TIME DEAL FOR THE U.S. TO OBTAIN RARE EARTH MINERALS IN THE FINAL STAGES ACCORDING TO A UKRAINIAN DEPUTY PRIME MINISTER.

NICK PAYTON WALSH JOINS US FROM KYIV.

YOU CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THESE LATEBREAKING DEVELOPMENTS.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING ABOUT THE PROPOSED DEAL THAT IS NOW APPARENTLY ON THE TABLE?

AND WHAT COULD IT MEAN FOR UKRAINE'S FUTURE AND I WANT TO SPECIFICALLY OUTLINE, WOULD IT INCLUDE ANY SECURITY GUARANTEES OR THE ONES THAT THE PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE SAID HAVE TO BE INCLUDED?

>> I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT TO STRESS.

IT IS OUR UNDERSTANDING FROM UKRAINIAN SOURCE FAMILIAR WITH THE FINALIZE DRAFT, AS THEY REFER TO IT, THERE DOES NOT APPEAR TO BE SECURITY GUARANTEES FOR UKRAINE AND THAT.

IS SOURCE SAID THE AMERICANS HAVE RESISTED.

AND SO OUR UNDERSTANDING FROM THE SOURCE OF THE INITIAL DOCUMENT, THAT UKRAINIANS SENT TO WASHINGTON TO ESSENTIALLY WAIT FOR THE RESPONSE AND HOPE THEY AGREE TO IS WHAT THEY REFER TO AS A FRAMEWORK FOR UKRAINIAN RECONSTRUCTION.

ESSENTIALLY, I THINK A POSITIVE SPIN ON WHAT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN ASKING FOR WHICH IS A LOT OF UKRAINE NATURAL RESOURCES OR CERTAINLY HALF OF THE REVENUE FROM THAT.

IN EXCHANGE POTENTIALLY, SOME U.S. INVESTMENT AND RECONSTRUCTION GETTING THOSE RESOURCES FLOWING AGAIN.

THE TOUGH, TECHNICAL DETAILS OF THAT WILL, IT SEEMS, ACCORDING TO THIS UKRAINIAN SOURCE, BE DEALT WITH IN LATER TALKS OR LATER AGREEMENTS.

WHAT WE ARE INITIALLY SEEING AS A DOCUMENT THAT ESSENTIALLY SEEMS TO SAY, WE WANT TO WORK TOGETHER.

WE NEED TO HAVE THIS RELATIONSHIP.

WE AGREE TO THE CONCEPT OF YOU TAKING PART IN THE UKRAINE NATURAL RESOURCES.

BUT THE MORE THORNY PART, WE WILL DEAL WITH LATER.

A SOURCE SAYING THE MARKS OF DOUBLE ELEMENTS HAVE BEEN REMOVED FOR UKRAINE AND MAY BE A REFERENCE TO THE HALF TRILLION DOLLAR FIGURE THAT APPEARS TO BE PART OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S INITIAL PUSH ON THIS.

THAT IS SOMETHING PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY WAS CATEGORICAL ON I WOULD NOT ACCEPT IN A PRESS CONFERENCE YESTERDAY.

BUT IT SEEMS TO BE A SLIGHT KICKING OF THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD.

AND POTENTIALLY WHAT THIS RELATIONSHIP NEEDS TO CAP OFF A PRETTY HORRIFIC WEEK IN WHICH THE PRESIDENT'S RELATIONSHIP HAS BEEN WITH SOMETHING POSITIVE ENOUGH OR THEY CAN BOTH AGREE TO PICK THE SUGGESTION FROM THE UKRAINIAN SOURCE IS TO POTENTIALLY, DOWN THE LINE, A UKRAINIAN ASPIRATION THAT MAY BE THE PRESIDENT'S MIGHT MEET AND BE ABLE TO DISCUSS SECURITY GUARANTEES.

WE SAW VIDEO RELEASED OF A MOMENT IN WHICH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY AND PRESIDENT TRUMP WERE ON THE SAME VIDEO CALL WHERE PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY ADDRESSED THE G7 MEETING OF WHICH WAS ON A VIDEO LINK.

OF WHICH MANY EUROPEAN LEADERS NOT LONG FOR OFFICE AND THE SAME WITH JUSTIN TRUDEAU WHO WAS KIND OF THE CHAIRMAN THERE.

UNCLEAR FROM THE VIDEO WE SAW OF PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SPOKE DIRECTLY.

ALTHOUGH ZELENSKYY SAID THAT THEY DID HAVE A CONVERSATION.

SO A BIT THERE FROM FRANCE'S EMMANUEL MACRON WHO IS IN WASHINGTON IT APPEARS IN THE VIDEO FEED IN THE OVAL OFFICE NEXT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP TO PERHAPS ENSURE THAT THERE IS SOME IMPROVEMENT PERHAPS.

HE CERTAINLY HAS GONE TO WASHINGTON TO PRESS EUROPE'S SECURITY CASE FIRMLY AND THE NEED TO SUPPORT UKRAINE TO PRESIDENT TRUMP.

A LOT MOVING HERE TODAY.

I THINK IT IS WHITE ANXIETY AMONG EUROPEANS.

NOT SOMETHING THEY SPOKE OF OPENLY.

THE TALK WAS AMONG THE 13 WORLD LEADERS THAT CAME HERE AND CONTINUED SOLIDARITY, UNITY AND CONTINUED THE SYSTEMS FINANCIALLY FOR UKRAINE ON THE FIELD.

MORE SANCTIONS ANNOUNCED BY THE UNITED KINGDOM.

UNITED KINGDOM SAYING THERE WILLING TO PUT TROOPS ON THE GROUND FOR A PEACE KEEPING FORCE IF CERTAIN CONDITIONS WERE IN PLACE AND THE WAS PROVIDED A BACKSTOP.

SO A LOT MOVING.

BUT NO DOUBT THAT THE U.S.

RELATIONSHIP HAS SIGNIFICANTLY CHANGED.

THERE MIGHT BE A BID RIGHT NOW TO PIECE IT BACK TOGETHER AGAIN.

BUT I THINK A LOT OF SHOCK HAS BEEN RIPPLING THROUGH KYIV OVER THE PAST WEEK.

>> AS HE POINTED OUT, NO CLARITY AS TO WHAT THAT UKRAINE AMERICAN RELATIONSHIP WILL LOOK LIKE IN THE COMING WEEKS OR MONTHS.

PAYTON WALSH IN KYIV, MUCH APPRECIATED.

>> AS THE PEACE TALKS GAIN STEAM ON THIS THIRD ANNIVERSARY, MANY UKRAINIANS ARE REMEMBERING THE TENS OF THOUSANDS THAT HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THE WAR AND THAT INCLUDES VICTIMS OF ATROCITIES LIKE THIS MASSACRE.

THIS MASS MURDER MARKED A TURNING POINT EARLY ON IN THE WAR.

WE HAVE MORE FROM WHEN THE ATROCITIES TOOK PLACE.

WE MUST WARN YOU THAT THIS FOOTAGE IS GRAPHIC.

>> REPORTER: IMAGES PUBLISHED SHORTLY AFTER RUSSIAN FORCES LEFT SHOW MANY CORPSES LYING IN THE STREETS.

SOME BODIES HAD THEIR HANDS TIED BEHIND THEIR BACKS.

PRESIDENT BIDEN CALLED WHAT HAPPENED HERE A WAR CRIME.

>> WHILE VISITING, THE UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOWED TO BRING THOSE BEHIND THE VIOLENCE AGAINST CIVILIANS TO JUSTICE.

>> THESE ARE WAR CRIMES, HE SAYS AND THEY WILL BE RECOGNIZED BY THE WORLD AS GENOCIDE.

YOU ARE HERE AND YOU CAN SEE WHAT HAPPENED.

WE KNOW THAT THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WERE KILLED AND TORTURED, TIEREDLIMBS, RAPED WOMEN AND KILLED CHILDREN.

THE KREMLIN DENIED RUSSIA WAS BEHIND ANY ATROCITIES IN BUCHA.

THE INTERNATIONAL CRIMINAL COURT OPENED AN INVESTIGATION IN APRIL 2022 A.

AS WE JUST SAW, IT IS IN FACT UKRAINIAN CIVILIANS THAT HAVE SUFFERED THE MOST IN THIS CONFLICT.

AND THROUGHOUT YEARS OF WAR NOW, MANY ARE FIGHTING TO PRESERVE THEIR CULTURAL HERITAGE.

THIS IS ONE OF UKRAINE'S BEST KNOWN NOVELISTS AND HAS CHRONICLED HIS COUNTRY AT WAR AND WE CERTAINLY WELCOME YOU TO THE PROGRAM AFTER YEARS INTO THIS CONFLICT.

>> WE HAVE BEEN OUTLINING HOW TENS OF THOUSANDS OF UKRAINIAN LIVES HAVE BEEN LOST.

WE HAVE SEEN THESE UNIMAGINABLE ATROCITIES TAKE PLACE.

MILLIONS, WE HAVE TO SAY, REFUGEES IN EUROPE AND BEYOND.

YOU HAVE CHRONICLED, AS WE SAID, THIS WAR IN YOUR WRITINGS.

HOW DO YOU LOOK BACK ON THESE THREE YEARS AND WHAT DOES THIS REALITY LOOK LIKE FOR THOSE LIVING AND I WILL SAY FIGHTING AT THIS HOUR IN UKRAINE?

>> IT IS A VERY TOUGH TIME, ESPECIALLY POLITICALLY BECAUSE OF THE PROMISED NEGOTIATIONS WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN.

BUT UKRAINE IS REMEMBERING NOW THE VICTIMS OF THIS WAR AND AMONG THE VICTIMS, THERE ARE MORE THAN 100 RIDERS.

SEVERAL DAYS AGO, A BOOK THAT WAS NEVER FINISHED AND PUBLISHED IN ENGLISH AND FRENCH.

WE ARE LIVING WITH THE UNFINISHED BOOKS.

WE HAVE MORE AND MORE PEOPLE OF CULTURE DEAD.

THE NUMBER OF DAMAGED AND DESTROYED LIBRARIES IS ALMOST 800.

AND SO I DON'T WANT TO GIVE YOU MORE DATA ABOUT THIS BUT GENERALLY, IT IS A VERY SERIOUS SITUATION AND IF YOU START THINKING ABOUT RECONSTRUCTION OF UKRAINE, IT WILL TAKE A CASE TO GET BACK THE MATERIAL PART OF THE COUNTRY.

BUT SPIRITUALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY, UKRAINIANS WILL REMAIN TRAUMATIZED AND DAMAGED FOR MANY YEARS TO COME.

>> THAT IS TO BE SURE.

AND SUCH PERSONAL LOSS IN SO MANY FAMILIES RIGHT ACROSS UKRAINE.

AS YOU SAY, THIS IS THE TIME WHEN MANY SAY THEY ARE WORKING TO TRY TO END THE WAR.

THE U.S. HAS TAKEN A SURPRISING AND SOME WOULD SAY A SHOCKING TURN AND FOREIGN POLICY.

BEFORE WE CONTINUE, I WANT TO LET YOU KNOW THAT TRUMP SAYS THAT EVERYTHING IS ON THE TABLE IN THIS NEGOTIATION AND THAT INDEED PERHAPS AMERICA WILL ACCEPT EUROPEAN PEACE KEEPERS ON THE GROUND IN UKRAINE TO MAKE SURE THAT RUSSIA ABIDES BY ANY PEACETERMS.

HOW DO YOU BELIEVE UKRAINIANS ARE ACTING TO ALL OF THIS FROM THE WHITE HOUSE?

AND DO YOU BELIEVE THERE IS A SENTIMENT OF BETRAYAL HERE, OR DO THEY STILL HOPE THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP WILL BE ABLE TO MAKE A DEAL?

>> I THINK THE HOPES OF THE UKRAINIANS ARE WITH EUROPE, WITH FRANCE AND GERMANY, AFTER THE ELECTIONS.

THE U.S. IS CONSIDERED A TRAITOR BY MANY UKRAINIANS.

ESPECIALLY AFTER PRESIDENT TRUMP REFUSED TO CALL PUTIN OR RUSSIA, THE AGGRESSOR.

AND NOW RECENTLY THERE WAS THE STORY WITH THE TWO DOCUMENTS PREPARED FOR THE UNITED NATIONS.

ONE BY UKRAINE AND ONE BY THE UNITED STATES WHERE RUSSIA IS NOT REALLY CALLED THE AGGRESSOR AND THE SIDE THAT ATTACKED UKRAINE.

SO IT LOOKS LIKE THE U.S. IS NOW TREATING UKRAINE AND RUSSIA AS EQUAL SIDES IN THE WAR WHICH IS COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE BY UKRAINIANS.

>> DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT BELIEVES THAT IS THE ONLY WAY TO GET TO A DEAL?

SOME HAVE SUGGESTED IT IS THROUGH NEGOTIATION ON HIS PART AND NOT A BETRAYAL.

>> WE WILL SEE THE END RESULT.

WHEN HE IS TALKING TO PUTIN AND HIS FIRST CONVERSATION WAS SO FRIENDLY THE PEOPLE ARE THINKING ABOUT THE PAST BUSINESS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP IN RUSSIA.

HE WAS THERE FROM 1987 PICK HE MET PUTIN.

HE IS NOW TREATED AND RUSSIAN MEDIA VERY FRIENDLY PERSON A ACTUALLY RUSSIANS ARE TOLD NOT TO CRITICIZE AND CALL AMERICAN NAMES.

AND THE MAIN ENEMIES ARE POLAND AND UKRAINE ON THE LEASE OF THE ENEMIES OF THE RUSSIAN PEOPLE SO MAYBE HE IS SO SHREWD AND HE WILL ACHIEVE SOMETHING BUT DEFINITELY COME AT THE EXPENSE OF THE TRUST FROM THE UKRAINIAN SIDE TO THE STATES.

>> WE DO HEAR YOUR WORDS, THAT YOU DO BELIEVEUKRAINE HAS BEEN BETRAYED.

I DO WANT TO TURN TO YOUR WORK ON WRITING ABOUT THIS ROLE MORE AND CHRONICLING IT IN SUCH PERSONAL TERMS.

IT CAN ONLY BE PERSONAL FOR UKRAINIANS.

WHAT STORIES HAVE SHOCKED YOU BUT ALSO INSPIRED YOU THE MOST THROUGH THIS?

>> THOUSANDS OF STORIES.

YOU DON'T NEED TO INVENT ANYTHING.

IN THE LAST THREE YEARS, I HAVE SEEN IN FRONT OF MY EYES, THE BEGINNING OF THE FULL-SCALE INVASION OR WE HAD TO ESCAPE FROM KYIV AND WE WERE IN THE MOUNTAINS WITH MINUS 15 CENTIGRADE ON THE NIGHT OF THE 26th OF FEBRUARY AND WE WERE HELD BY PEOPLE AT A HOSTEL THAT WAS ABANDONED BY THE SOVIET TIMES ET CETERA.

NOW YOU KNOW SO MANY STORIES FROM THE SOLDIERS AND FROM PEOPLE GOING THROUGH THE EXAMPLES AND ARE ACROSS TO THE PEOPLE IN RUINS.

AND SOME ANIMAL ACTIVITIES -- TO FIND THE HOMELESS CAMPS AND DOG OWNERS WERE ON THE RUN OR KILLED.

THERE ARE A LOT OF STORIES OF THIS HUMANITY, OF THE VERY SINCERE AND DIRECT INVOLVEMENT OF PEOPLE IN THESE RISKY SITUATIONS IN ORDER TO HELP OTHER UKRAINIANS AND IN ORDER TO SAVE AS MANY LIVES OF CIVILIANS AS POSSIBLE.

>> I'M SURE THOSE STORIES ARE INSPIRING TO SO MANY.

WE KNOW AS WELL HUNDREDS OF ARTISTS HAVE DIED IN THIS WAR.

AND YET, YOU AND OTHERS HAVE TRIED TO MAKE SURE THAT UKRAINIAN CULTURE CONTINUES TO SURVIVE.

AND SOME EVEN SAYING THAT UKRAINIAN CULTURE ITSELF IS UNDER A GOLDEN AGE RIGHT NOW.

PEOPLE ARE FLOCKING TO MUSEUMS AND THEATERS AND PURCHASING AND READING UKRAINIAN LANGUAGE WORKS .

WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THIS PRESERVATION OF UKRAINIAN CULTURE IS SO IMPORTANT, EVEN AFTER THE SACRIFICE ON THE FRONT LINE AND BEYOND IS JUST SO CRITICAL AT THIS STAGE?

>> I THINK UKRAINIANS ARE SURE THAT THE CULTURE OF UKRAINE, THE LANGUAGE OF UKRAINE ARE THE TARGETS IN THE WAR ALSO.

TWO MUSEUMS DESTROYED BY MISSILES.

ONE OF THE BEST KNOWN ARTISTS OF UKRAINE AND THE MUSEUM OF KHAREIV.

MANY UNIVERSITIES AND OTHER CULTURAL ESTABLISHMENTS WERE DESTROYED OR DAMAGED.

AND PEOPLE ARE DOING FUNDRAISERS AND SENDING MONEY TO REPAIR IT OR RESTORE IT OR TO SAVE WHAT IS LEFT INSIDE.

THE NEIGHBORS OF THE MUSEUMS WORKING TO TAKE OUT PICTURES THAT WERE HANGING THERE IN ORDER JUST TO SAVE THEM, AS MANY AS POSSIBLE.

>> EXTRAORDINARY STORIES THAT WE HAVE SEEN TIME AND AGAIN.

SINCE THE WAR STARTED, THERE HAVE BEEN EFFORTS.

AND YOU CONTINUE TO TALK ABOUT THOSE.

EFFORTS TO SUPPRESS RUSSIAN HERITAGE AND CULTURE IN UKRAINE WITH THE 2023 DECOLONIZATION BEING A PRIME EXAMPLE OF THAT.

YOU HAVE ALSO SAID THOUGH, YOU SAID EARLIER THIS MONTH, AND I READ YOUR WORDS HERE, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, WE NEEDED A WAR IN UKRAINE TO SHOW THAT UKRAINE IS DIFFERENT FROM RUSSIA, TO THE POINT THAT RUSSIA IS TRYING TO DESTROY IT BECAUSE OF THAT VERY DIFFERENCE.

WHAT DID YOU MEAN BY THAT?

TO SOME, THOSE WORDS MIGHT SEEM SHOCKING.

>> PUTIN SAID MANY TIMES THAT UKRAINIANS DON'T EXIST.

THEY ARE RUSSIANS BUT THEY WANT TO BE DIFFERENT.

THE GOAL OF RUSSIA WAS TO ASSIMILATE UKRAINIANS FOR UKRAINIANS OR MENTALLY DIFFERENT.

THEY'VE NEVER HAD ROYAL FAMILY.

THEY ARE INDIVIDUALISTS.

THEY PREFER FREEDOM TO STABILITY WHEREAS RUSSIA WAS ALWAYS A MONARCHY AND RUSSIANS WERE COLLECTIVE AND LOYAL.

WHEN THEY WERE UNHAPPY, THEY WOULD KILL ONE.

OF COURSE THE CHRISTIANITY CAME TO OUR LINES FROM CONSTANTINOPLE, TO KYIV.

FOR THE RUSSIAN WORLD OF PUTIN, THE RUSSIAN EMPIRE IS UNIMAGINABLY.

THERE ARE A LOT OF REASONS.

LIKE THE MOST FAMOUS UKRAINIAN WRITER WHO WROTE HUMOROUS AND SATIRIC NOVELS, WHO WROTE IN RUSSIAN AND BECAME VERY POPULAR IN RUSSIA, HE CREATED FASHION FOR EVERYTHING WITH HIS NOVELS IN ST. PETERSBURG 180 YEARS AGO.

AND THE RICH PEOPLE WANTED TO HAVE UKRAINIAN SERVANTS.

UKRAINIAN EMBROIDERED SHIRTS.

UKRAINIAN COOKS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF SMALL DETAILS WHICH PROBABLY ARE THE REASON WHY IS SO MANY RUSSIANS ARE CRAZY THAT UKRAINE IS INDEPENDENT.

THEY SUPPORT PUTIN'S EFFORT TO INTEGRATE UKRAINE AND MAKE IT A PROVINCE OF RUSSIA.

>> YOUR BOOK PUBLISHED LAST YEAR, THE DAILY WAR, YOU WROTE THAT YOU STILL BELIEVE UKRAINE WILL WIN.

ANDRE, WHAT DOES WINNING LOOK LIKE RIGHT NOW, FOR UKRAINE?

>> THEY WANT VICTORY.

CHANGE TO THE MEANING SEVERAL TIMES SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE FULL-SCALE INVASION.

FIRST, WE WERE DREAMING OF LIBERATING THE OCCUPIED TERRITORIES.

GETTING CRIMEA BACK, ET CETERA.

NOW PROBABLY THE VICTORY REMAINS THAT UKRAINE WILL REMAIN INDEPENDENT.

IT WILL REMAIN STRONG COUNTRY.

AND IT WILL BECOME A MEMBER OF THE EUROPEAN UNION.

AND THAT ACTUALLY, I DON'T SEE ANY OTHER FUTURE FOR UKRAINE OTHER THAN EUROPEAN.

BECAUSE IN THE OTHER SITUATION COME UKRAINE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO SURVIVE AS A COUNTRY, AS A STATE, AS AN INDEPENDENT NATION WITH THE LANGUAGE, CULTURE, TRADITIONS AND HISTORY.

>> THAT IS CERTAINLY THE VISION WE HAVE HEARD FROM SO MANY UKRAINIANS OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS.

AND WE LEAVE IT THERE NOW AS WE CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THE LATEST NEWS.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> WE GO TO GERMANY AN HOUR THE COUNTRY MADE A SEISMIC SHIFT TO THE RIGHT AFTER A NATIONWIDE ELECTION SUNDAY.

THEY ALSO SAW THE FAR RIGHT, A FD SERGE, TO SECOND PLACE.

THE LIKELY NEXT CHANCELLOR, LAID OUT HIS VISION FOR GERMANY AND EUROPE WHICH INCLUDES EUROPEAN UNITY AND INDEPENDENCE FROM THE UNITED STATES.

WHAT DOES THE SELECTION MEAN FOR GERMANY, FOR EUROPE AND OF COURSE FOR UKRAINE?

DAVID BRODER IS A HISTORIAN WHO STUDIED THE FAR RIGHT MOVEMENT IN EUROPE AND CONSTANCE MILLER IS AN EXPERT ON GERMANY AND INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AT BROOKINGS AND I WELCOME YOU BOTH TO THE PROGRAM.

GERMANS CAME OUT IN ARE HIGHEST NUMBERS.

THE TURNOUT WAS INCREDIBLE WITH VOTERS CONCERNED MOSTLY ABOUT IMMIGRATION, A STAGNATING ECONOMY AND ALSO AS WELL, GERMANY'S PLACE IN THE WORLD AS WE JUST OUTLINED THE AFD, THE SECOND-LARGEST PARTY WILL REMAIN OUTSIDE OF THIS COALITION .

THAT IS BECAUSE THEY WILL REMAIN THE FIREWALL IN PLACE.

CONSTANCE, WHAT MESSAGE DID GERMANS SEND TO THEIR POLITICIANS?

AND CAN CONCERNS BE ADDRESSED BY FRIEDRICH MERZ AS HE SAYS HE WILL BUILD THIS COALITION WITH TWO CENTRAL PARTIES?

>> HE IS BUILDING IT WITH ANOTHER CENTRIST PARTY.

THE SOCIAL DEMOCRATS, WHO CURRENTLY ARE BEING A LITTLE BIT COY ABOUT NEGOTIATING.

BUT I DON'T THINK THEY HAVE A LOT OF CHOICE.

I THINK THAT THE MESSAGES, THAT NEARLY 80% OF GERMANY'S 59 MILLION VOTERS, AS YOU WERE SAYING EARLIER, AN EXTRAORDINARILY HIGH VOTER PARTICIPATION OF 84% THAT HAVE NOT BEEN SEEN IN 30 YEARS, SAID THAT THEY WANTED A CENTRIST DEMOCRATIC PARTY TO GOVERN GERMANY, WITH ONE DISTINCTIVE EXCEPTION THAT I'M SURE DAVID BRODER WILL COMMENT ON WHICH IS THAT THE LEFT PARTY WAS REVIVED FROM THE NEAR-DEATH SITUATION WHEREAS IT SPLIT OFF AND FAILED TO ENTER PARLIAMENT BECAUSE IT DID NOT GET ACROSS THE 5% THRESHOLD.

THE BAD NEWS OF THIS IS THAT 20% VOTED FOR THE EXTREME RIGHT AFD, ONE OF THE MOST OVERTLY HARD RIGHT PARTIES IN EUROPE.

AND THE NUMBERS AND EASTERN GERMAN STATES ARE EVEN HIGHER, UP TO 37%.

>> THAT IS THE TRUTH OF WHAT THAT VOTE LOOKED LIKE.

ESPECIALLY AMONG YOUNG MEN.

MANY VOTED FOR THE AFD.

DAVID, ONE OUT OF THREE GERMANS, IT WAS SAID, ACTUALLY VOTED FOR MR. FRIEDRICH MERZ.

WHAT KIND OF MANDATE DOES THAT GIVE THEM?

HE HAS CAMPAIGNED FOR LOWERING TAXES FOR BUSINESSES AND ALSO OF COURSE CUTTING SOCIAL WELFARE BENEFITS.

WHAT KIND OF CHANCELLOR WILL HE BE, ESPECIALLY COMPARED TO OLAF SCHOLZ OR ANGELA MERKEL BEFORE HIM?

>> I THINK IT IS A DIFFICULT MOMENT FOR FRIEDRICH MERZ.

BECAUSE THIS ISN'T THE KIND OF MAJORITY OR THE KIND OF MANDATE THAT HE MIGHT HAVE EXPECTED AT THE BEGINNING OF THE CAMPAIGN WITH SUCH A WEAK OUTGOING GOVERNMENT.

IT IS POSSIBLE THAT HE WILL MAKE A COALITION WITH THE SOCIAL DEMOCRATS AND PERHAPS ALSO WITH THE GREENS.

BUT HE WILL BE AWARE THAT HE WILL HAVE A RIGHT WING PRESSURE FROM THE AFD.

THEY WILL BE SAYING, WE SHOULD HAVE AN ALLIANCE OF ALL RIGHT WING FORCES.

THEY WILL BE SAYING THAT FRIEDRICH MERZ IS CATERING TO LEFT-WING PARTIES AND THAT IS A NARRATIVE THAT WE ARE ALREADY SAYING WAS WHIPPED UP BY THE LIKES OF JD VANCE, ELON MUSK AND SO ON.

THIS GOVERNMENT ALSO WILL HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR A VERY DIFFERENT INTERNATIONAL PICTURE, PARTICULARLY AS FRIEDRICH MERZ HIMSELF SAID, GERMANY WILL HAVE TO PLAY A ROLL IN EUROPE, BEING MORE INDEPENDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND PERHAPS INCREASED DEFENSE SPENDING AND CHANGING THINGS LIKE RULES ON THE DEBT BREAK AND THE CONSTITUTIONAL LIMIT ON BORROWING IN ORDER TO FACILITATE THAT.

THAT WILL CREATE PROBLEMS IN HIS OWN COALITION THAT HE HAS TO RELY ON OTHER PARTIES.

ALSO THE AFD PROVEN VERY ADEPT AT CRITICIZING THE CHRISTIAN DEMOCRATS FROM MULTIPLE ANGLES.

BOTH FURTHER RIGHT ON IMMIGRATION, FOR A HARDER LINE AND ALSO APPEALING TO SOME SORT OF SOCIAL DISCONTENT, PARTICULARLY THE KIND OF FREE MARKETEER PARTY WITH LIBERTARIAN ELEMENTS.

SO I THINK WE SHOULD PROBABLY CONSIDER THAT THERE IS A GOOD CHANCE THAT THIS GOVERNMENT MIGHT ACTUALLY LAST A FULL TERM OR THAT IT WILL BE CONSIDERABLE PRESSURE, FROM ITS RIGHTS FROM THE AFD.

IT IS A PARTY.

NOT THAT ALL GERMANS ARE GERMANS IN GENERAL BUT THEY WILL CLAIM THAT THEY ARE BEING IGNORED.

>> AND THAT IS AT ODDS WITH WHAT MR. FRIEDRICH MERZ SAID THAT HE WANTS GERMANY TO BE THE PILLAR OF EUROPE.

HE IS SEEN AS A STRONG SUPPORTER OF TRANSATLANTIC RELATIONS AND SPENT A DECADE HEADING WHAT IS CALLED THE ATLANTIC BRIDGE, AND ASSOCIATION SEEKING TOO.

GERMAN-AMERICAN RELATIONS AND A BIT IRONIC THAT WE HAVE TODAY SAYING THAT EUROPE WILL HAVE TO ACHIEVE, IN HIS WORDS, INDEPENDENCE FROM THE UNITED STATES.

LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAID.

>> I WOULD HAVE NEVER BELIEVED I WOULD HAVE TO THINK SOMETHING LIKE THIS, LET ALONE SAY IT.

AND ALL THE SIGNALS WE'RE GETTING FROM THE U.S. INDICATE THAT THEIR INTEREST IN EUROPE IS CLEARLY WANING AND THE WILLINGNESS TO GET INVOLVED IN EUROPE IS DECREASING.

NONETHELESS, I HOPE WE CAN CONVINCE AMERICANS THAT IT IS IN OUR MUTUAL INTEREST THAT WE CONTINUE TO HAVE GOOD TRANSATLANTIC RELATIONS.

>> CONSTANCE, HE NOT ONLY HAS TO THINK IT AND SAY IT BUT HAS TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

WHAT KIND OF MANEUVERABILITY WILL HE HAVE AS DAVID JUST OUTLINED THE DIFFICULTY OF THE COALITION FOR HIM?

>> I THINK THAT DAVID'S DESCRIPTION WAS PERFECTLY ACCURATE.

AND I THINK THERE IS A REAL RISK THAT FRIEDRICH MERZ MIGHT TURN OUT TO BE A TRANSITIONAL FIGURE.

IN MANY WAYS, HE IS PART OF A GENERATION OF TRANSATLANTIC CYSTS IN GERMANY THAT MAY BE ON ITS WAY OUT.

AND SO HE RATHER RESEMBLES JOE BIDEN.

THAT SAID, I THINK HIS EUROPEAN IS HIM AND HIS TRANSATLANTIC STEAK ISN.

SO THE AMERICAN SIDE OF THE BARGAIN HAS JUST FLIPPED TO THE OTHER SIDE AS IT WERE AND IS MAKING NOISES THAT ARE DISTINCTLY HOSTILE TOWARD EUROPE AND GERMANY.

I WAS IN MUNICH MYSELF AT THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE AND WAS TRAVELING BEFORE THAT.

AND WAS AT NATO AND THE EU AND AFTERWARDS WAS TRAVELING AMONG OTHER PLACES IN SWEDEN.

AND I CAN SAY WITH SOME CONVICTION AND EXPERIENCE THAT EUROPEANS ARE SHELLSHOCKED ABOUT THIS.

I WANT TO ADD ONE POINT TO WHAT DAVID BRODER WAS SAYING WHICH IS THAT THE AFD IN WHAT IS CLEARLY A BID TO DEPICT THE CHRISTIAN DEMOCRATS AND SOMEHOW BUT TRIERS OF TRUE CONSERVATISM IS VERY MUCH IN LINE WITH WHAT THE VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES SAID IN MUNICH.

FOLLOWING THE PATTERN OF THE MOST HARD RIGHT PARTIES IN EUROPE WHO HAVE BEEN ATTACKING THE CENTER-RIGHT PARTIES AND TRYING TO HOLD THEM OUT AND FRAGMENT THEM.

I THINK THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT THE AFD IS ONE OF EUROPE'S MOST HARD RIGHT PARTIES AND IS OVERTLY WITH NEO-NAZI GROUPS AND ESPECIALLY WITH THE EASTERN STATES GIVING IT LESS ROOM TO MANEUVER THAN OTHER MORE, SHALL WE SAY, SOPHISTICATED RIGHT- WING PARTIES SUCH AS IN FRANCE WHO HAVE MANAGED TO PERSUADE A MUCH LARGER SEGMENT OF FRENCH VOTERS THAT THEY INDEED ARE THE FUTURE OF CONSERVATISM.

>> UNDERSTOOD THAT IN FRANCE PERHAPS THEY HAVE PULLED TO THE CENTER AND IN GERMANY, THAT DOES NOT SEEM TO BE THE CASE SO FAR.

DAVID, YOU STUDY THIS.

WE REPEAT THAT THE AFD WON 20.89% OF THE VOTE.

VERY POPULAR AMONG MANY YOUNG PEOPLE, ESPECIALLY IN EASTERN GERMANY.

THIS AGAIN IS THE BEST RESULTS OF A GERMAN FAR RIGHT PARTY SINCE WORLD WAR II.

OBVIOUSLY SIGNIFICANT.

HOW DO YOU SEE IT FUNCTIONING AS THE MAIN OPPOSITION IN GERMANY?

AND WILL THAT NECESSARILY MOVE THIS COALITION TO THE RIGHT, ESPECIALLY WHEN IT COMES TO ISSUES LIKE IMMIGRATION?

>> ALREADY, BEFORE THE ELECTION, AFTER THE TERRORIST ATTACK IN BAVARIA, WE SAW FRIEDRICH MERZ WITH EMOTION ON CURBING IMMIGRATION.

WHICH WAS WIDELY PORTRAYED AS A POLITICAL STUNT REALLY DESIGNED TO SHOW THE MIGRATION.

AND THAT MOTION CAUSED THINGS TO THE VOTES.

IN GOVERNMENT, THE ACTION WILL BE MUCH MORE LIMITED.

AND HARD FOR HIM AS CHANCELLOR TO FLIRT WITH THE AFD EVEN IN THAT KIND OF WAY.

IN TERMS OF THE OPPOSITION, AS CONSTANCE MENTIONED EARLIER, ONE OF THE OTHER FACTS OF THE ELECTION WAS THE MODEST BUT REAL RISE OF THE LEFT-WING FORCE AND AS YOU MENTIONED, THE YOUTH VOTE FOR THE AFD WAS VERY STRONG AMONG YOUNG MEN.

BUT THAT IS TOTALLY POLARIZED BY GENDER.

THE YOUNG WOMEN VOTED VERY STRONGLY FOR THE LEFT.

I THINK THAT IN GENERAL, WE CAN SAY THAT THERE ARE SIGNS THAT THE MAIN PARTIES DON'T HAVE THE KIND OF GRIP ON VOTERS THAT THEY USE TO.

THEY CAN'T OFFER THE SAME KIND OF PROMISE OF MERITOCRACY, PEOPLE HAVING GOOD CAREER PROSPECTS AHEAD OF THEM, PARTICULARLY THE ECONOMY BEING THE WAY IT HAS BEEN THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

BUT POLITICAL REACTIONS TO THAT CAN PLAY OUT IN DIFFERENT WAYS.

SO THE FAR RIGHT, THE AFD, IS CERTAINLY THE STRONGEST FORCE IMMOBILIZING THAT.

PARTICULARLY BUT NOT ONLY IN EAST GERMANY BUT PARTICULARLY IN RURAL AREAS.

AND SO I THINK IT IS DIFFICULT FOR LEFT-WING PARTIES AND FOR MAINSTREAM PARTIES IN GENERAL, TO TRY TO REBUILD THAT KIND OF CONFIDENCE IN POLITICS IN THE PUBLIC REALM AND PUBLIC SERVICES AND THAT KIND OF THING.

AT A TIME IN POLITICS IS ALREADY VERY POLARIZED AND WHEN THE LIKELY INCOMING COALITION LOOKS QUITE SHAKY.

AND WHAT AFD IS ABLE TO OFFER AND THE REASONS WHY PEOPLE SAY THEY VOTED FOR THEM, THOSE ARE PEOPLE THAT OFTEN SAY THAT THEY ARE STRUGGLING WITH INFLATION AND THAT KIND OF THING.

REALLY THE MORE GALVANIZING THING IS IMMIGRATION.

THAT IS THE MESSAGE.

THAT IS WHY THEY SAY THE PEOPLE ARE BEING OVERLOOKED.

BECAUSE THEYWITH UP SAYING THE ECONOMY IS BAD BECAUSE THE MIGRATION.

>> DAVID BRODER, WE WILL LEAVE IT THERE.

CONSTANCE IS WELCOME THANK YOU FOR YOUR INSIGHT.

>> A STRING OF UNPRECEDENTED FIRINGS BY PRESIDENT TRUMP SENDING SHOCK WAVES TO THE PENTAGON.

AMONG THOSE LET GO ARE CHIEF NAVAL OPERATIONS ADMIRAL, LISA FRANCHITTI AND THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF GENERAL CQ BROWN.

TRUMP ON TRUE SOCIAL FRIDAY NIGHT THANKED BROWN FOR HIS OVER FOUR DECADES OF SERVICE CALLING HIM A FINE GENTLEMAN AND OUTSTANDING LEADER.

THIS PURGE IS ALLEGEDLY PART OF A CAMPAIGN LED BY DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH TARGETING MILITARY LEADERS WHO SUPPORT DIVERSITY.

AND ONLY THE SECOND LIKE GENERAL TO SERVE AS CHAIR, BROWN HAS BEEN A VOCAL ADVOCATE OF REPRESENTATION IN THE UNITED STATES MILITARY.

HE SPOKE ABOUT THIS WITH CHRIS JOHN IN 2022.

HERE IS SOME OF THE CONVERSATION .

>> CAN I ASK YOU TO TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE AND EXPERIENCE PARTICULARLY IN THE U.S. MILITARY AT LARGE?

AND PARTICULARLY ON DIVERSITY?

LET ME READ YOU A FEW STATS.

YOUR THE AIR FORCE CHIEF OF STAFF.

THE FIRST BLACK OFFICER TO LEAD THE BRANCH OF THE U.S. MILITARY.

LAST YEAR, THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS, MARK MILLEY, SAID THE MILITARY IS 20% BLACK BUT ONLY 241 FOR FOUR STAR GENERALS ARE BLACK AND SAID WHEN YOU WERE COMMISSIONED AS A SECOND LIEUTENANT, THAT WAS BACK IN 1984.

ONLY 2% OF THE AIR FORCE PILOTS WERE BLACK WHICH IS THE SAME AS IT IS NOW.

WHAT IS THE PROBLEM?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I BELIEVE AND I WILL SAY FOR MY OWN EXPERIENCE IS YOUNG PEOPLE ONLY ASPIRE TO BE WHAT THEY SEE.

AND ONE OF THE GOALS HERE IS ACTUALLY, HOW DO WE GET MORE AFRICAN-AMERICANS A POSITION OF LEADERSHIP AND IN POSITIONS OF AVIATION AND THAT IS ONE OF THE CHALLENGES.

I WAS GOING TO BE AN ENGINEER.

I CAME IN THE AIR FORCE TO BE AN ENGINEER.

THAT WAS MY ORIGINAL PLAN.

I GET A CHANCE TO FLY AN AIRCRAFT WHEN I WAS IN ROTC AND COLLEGE.

THAT REALLY CHANGED MY MIND.

AND THEN I SAID I WANT TO BE A PILOT.

THAT IS WHAT I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO FOR THE PAST 37 PLUS YEARS.

THESE ARE THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT WE AS AN AIR FORCE ARE LOOKING AT HOW WE ENGAGE WITH DIFFERENT DIVERSE COMMUNITIES BASED ON RACE AND GENDER IN PARTICULAR AND EXPOSE THEM TO THESE OPPORTUNITIES IN AVIATION?

>> I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE AND WHAT YOU SAID A WEEK BEFORE YOUR CONFIRMATION.

IT DID GO A LITTLE BIT VIRAL.

A CAME DURING THE PROTEST OVER GEORGE FLOYD'S DEATH AND IT WAS VERY INTENSE.

THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID.

>> I'M THINKING ABOUT A HISTORY OF RACIAL ISSUES AND MY OWN EXPERIENCES, NOT ALWAYS WERE OF LIBERTY AND EQUALITY.

THINKING ABOUT MY AIR FORCE CAREER WHERE I WAS OFTEN THE ONLY AFRICAN AMERICAN IN MY SQUADRON OR SENIOR OFFICER OF THE ONLY AFRICAN AMERICAN IN THE ROOM.

THINKING ABOUT WEARING THE SAME FLIGHT SUIT WITH THE SAME WINGS ON MY CHEST AS MY PEERS AND BEING QUESTIONED BY ANOTHER MILITARY MEMBER.

>> WHEN I HEARD YOU SAY THAT, BEING QUESTIONED, ARE YOU A PILOT, IT REALLY WAS SO EFFECTIVE, THE WAY YOU PUT THAT.

YOU TOOK A BIT OF A RISK.

YOU POSTED A VIDEO.

IT IS NOT LIKE YOU WERE IN A PUBLIC Q&A.

HE DECIDED TO GO OUT AND SAY THAT.

AND I THINK IT HAD TO DO WITH SOME QUESTIONS FROM YOUR OWN SON.

TELL US ABOUT THAT AND WHAT PROMPTED THAT VIDEO.

>> OUR SON WAS LIVING IN WASHINGTON D.C.

WHEN WE WERE OUT IN HAWAII AT THE TIME.

AND HIS FRESHMAN YEAR OF COLLEGE WAS THE EVENT THAT FERGUSON, MISSOURI WHICH IS ABOUT 2 MILES FROM WHERE HE WENT TO SCHOOL AT WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY IN ST. LOUIS.

AND HE CALLED US ON A SUNDAY.

AND HE WAS STRUGGLING STRUGGLING.

AND SO, IN THE CONVERSATION, WHAT HE ASKED WAS, DAD, WHAT IS THE PACK ACT, PACIFIC AIR FORCE.

WHAT HE IS ASKING IS, DAD, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO SAY?

I WAS WAITING FOR MY CONFIRMATION AND AFTER THINKING IT OVER A LITTLE BIT, I FELT IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR ME TO SAY SOMETHING BECAUSE I KNOW PEOPLE WERE LOOKING TO ME AS A SENIOR AFRICAN AMERICAN OFFICER AND WHAT WAS I THINKING ABOUT?

AND SO THE VIDEO BASICALLY LAID OUT EXACTLY THE THINGS I WAS THINKING ABOUT, NOT JUST DURING THIS PIECE BUT REFLECTING ON MY CAREER.

THE VIDEO YOU SHOWED, KIND OF HIGHLIGHTING THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED TO ME THROUGHOUT MY CAREER.

BUT NOT JUST TO ME BUT I WOULD SAY MANY OF DIVERSE BACKGROUNDS THAT FOR VARIOUS REASONS WERE PUT INTO SITUATIONS WHERE THEY DON'T GET THE FULL OPPORTUNITY WHERE YOU GET DISCOUNTED BECAUSE YOU ARE THE FIRST ONE SOMEONE HAS SEEN.

AT HER -- IT IS THOSE KINDS OF THINGS.

THE GOAL FOR ME WAS, I ALWAYS WANTED TO BE THE BESTOFFICER I COULD BE.

THE BEST DAD I COULD BE.

THE BEST HUSBAND.

I SO HAPPEN TO BE AFRICAN AMERICAN.

TO ME, THAT, I WANT TO BE JUDGED ON MY MERIT AND NOT BASED ON THE COLOR OF MY SKIN.

>> BRIEFLY, WHAT WAS THE REACTION FROM AFRICAN-AMERICANS OR FROM WHITE COLLEAGUES OR JUST THE GENERAL PUBLIC?

>> I WOULD SAY OVERWHELMING.

PARTLY MUCH MORE SO THEN I EVER EXPECTED.

I REALLY WANTED TO FOCUS THE VIDEO TO THE PACK ACT.

AND IT WENT VIRAL.

FURTHER THEN I EXPECTED.

I GET PEOPLE TO COME UP TO ME THAT I INTERACTED WITH AND THEY SAY HOW IMPACTFUL IT WAS SORT THEY SHOW IT AT THEIR PLACE OF EMPLOYMENT OR THEY SHARED WITH A FAMILY MEMBER.

AND I'M PROUD I DID IT IN HINDSIGHT.

I'M GLAD IT IS HAVING THE IMPACT IT DID.

BUT THAT WAS NEVER MY INTENT.

AND SO IT IS SOMEWHAT HUMBLING TO BE HONEST WITH YOU.

PARTLY BECAUSE I AM AN INTROVERT.

FOR ME TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT AND GET THAT MUCH ATTENTION IS, IT PUTS EXTRA PRESSURE ON ME AND IT MAKES ME A LITTLE UNCOMFORTABLE SOMETIMES.

BUT I'M GLAD I WAS ABLE TO SAY SOMETHING THAT I THINK WAS ON THE MIND OF MANY OTHERS.

>> IT IS IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THE 1940 MILITARY DESEGREGATION EXECUTIVE ORDER SIGNED BY PRESIDENT TRUMAN PLAYED A CRUCIAL ROLL IN PUSHING FORWARD THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT IN THE UNITED STATES TO REMEMBER TOO THAT THESE FIRINGS OF THE JUDGE ADVOCATE GENERAL, SOME ANALYSTS SAY COME AT THEIR CORE, TO SIDELINE THOSE THAT PLEDGE AND THEIR OATH OF OFFICE TO DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION, AN OATH WHICH BROWN SAID IS QUOTE NOT TO AN INSTITUTION, NOT TO AN INDIVIDUAL, NOT TO ASSEMBLE, BUT TO AN IDEAL.

>> NEXT, ANOTHER INDIVIDUAL THAT COMMITTED HIS LIFE TO HIS IDEALS.

IN 2022, KENNETH ROTH LEFT HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH AFTER 30 YEARS AT THE HELM, DURING WHICH THE ORGANIZATION GREW DRAMATICALLY, CONDUCTING INVESTIGATIONS IN MORE THAN 100 COUNTRIES TO UNDERCOVER ABUSES.

SPEAKING TO WALTER ISAACSON, ROTH DISCUSSES HIS NEW BOOK WHICH DIGS INTO HIS THREE DECADES LEADING THE CHARGE FOR HUMAN RIGHTS AND ALSO, THEY SPEAK ABOUT THE MAJOR CHALLENGES TODAY.

HERE IS THEIR CONVERSATION.

>> THANK YOU, PAULA.

KENNETH ROTH, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> NICE TO BE WITH YOU.

>> YOU HAVE LED HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH FOR 30 YEARS AND I YOU ARE OUT WITH A BOOK ABOUT IT.

IT IS CALLED "RIGHTING WRONGS," THREE DECADES ON THE FRONT LINES BATTLING ABUSIVE GOVERNMENTS.

TAKE US BACK TO WHAT FIRST INSPIRED YOUR INTEREST IN HUMAN RIGHTS.

>> A BIG PART OF IT WAS MY FATHER'S EXPERIENCE.

HE FLED NAZI GERMANY IN JULY OF 1938 AS A 12-YEAR-OLD BOY, HEADING TO NEW YORK.

AND SO I GREW UP WITH HITLER'S STORIES AND WHAT IT WAS LIKE TO BE A YOUNG JEWISH BOY LIVING UNDER THE NAZIS.

AND THAT MADE ME VERY AWARE OF THE EVIL THAT GOVERNMENTS CAN DO AND MADE ME DETERMINED TO DEVOTE MY LIFE TO STOP THAT CONDUCT.

>> OR BE BACKSLIDING NOW FROM THE HUMAN RIGHTS FIGHT?

>> THIS IS CLEARLY A DIFFICULT MOMENT IN THE SENSE THAT TRUMP HAS ARRIVED.

THE AUTOCRATS FEEL EMBOLDENED.

BUT I ACTUALLY THINK THAT IT IS A COMPLICATED TIME FOR AUTOCRATS .

THE TWO MOST PROMINENT ONES, VLADIMIR PUTIN AND XI JINPING, BOTH MADE BIG MISTAKES BECAUSE THEY OPERATE IN AN ECHO CHAMBER WITH NO DEBATE ALLOWED.

AND THEN PUTIN INVADED UKRAINE AND XI JINPING IS DESTROYING THE ECONOMY.

WHEN YOU LOOK AROUND THE WORLD, PEOPLE LIVING UNDER AUTOCRACY DON'T WANT IT.

THEY COME TO THE STREETS AT RISK OF ARREST ARE BEING SHOT SOMETIMES THEY SUCCEED IN PLACES LIKE BANGLADESH OR SRI LANKA.

OTHER TIMES THEY DON'T.

ON THE BELIEVERS RUSSIA UGANDA HONG KONG.

BUT PEOPLE MAKE THEIR PREFERENCE CLEAR I THINK THE REAL CHALLENGE TODAY IS AN ESTABLISHED WESTERN DEMOCRACIES WHERE PEOPLE FEEL LEFT BEHIND, THAT DEMOCRACIES ARE NOT DELIVERING TO THEM.

THEY ARE NOT RESPECTED OR HEARD.

THE RIGHT FOR THE AUTOCRAT APPEAL.

I THINK THE REAL CHALLENGE IS TO BOLSTER THE ESTABLISHED DEMOCRACIES.

THE PEOPLE THAT LIVE UNDER AUTOCRACIES DON'T WANT IT.

IT IS PEOPLE IN DEMOCRACIES WHO ARE HAVING SECOND THOUGHTS.

>> ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE UNITED STATES?

>> CERTAINLY THE UNITED STATES.

BUT IF YOU LOOK THROUGHOUT EUROPE, THE FAR RIGHT PARTIES ARE DOING WELL.

OFTEN, MOST TYPICALLY, THEY DON'T GAIN POWER WITH THE EXCEPTION OF HUNGARY WITH VIKTOR ORBAN.

BUT THEY ARE THREATENING.

AND I THINK THAT IS A CONCERN.

IT SPEAKS TO THE DIFFICULTY THESE GOVERNMENTS HAVE OF REALLY ANSWERING TO THE DAY-TO- DAY NEEDS OF THEIR ENTIRE SOCIETY.

>> I ALWAYS THINK OF YOU AND HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH IN PLACES LIKE CHINA OR RUSSIA WHERE THERE ARE GROSS VIOLATIONS OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

DO YOU THINK THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMUNITY SHOULD BE INVOLVED IN WESTERN EUROPE'S ELECTIONS NOW?

>> THE HUMAN RIGHTS COMMUNITY HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN THE WEST.

THEY ALWAYS HAVE.

THE IDEA THAT DEMOCRACIES DON'T VIOLATE HUMAN RIGHTS, THAT IS JUST NOT TRUE.

THINK BACK TO THE GEORGE W. BUSH ADMINISTRATION, SYSTEMATIC TORTURE.

SENDING PEOPLE TO GUANTANAMO FOR ENDLESS DETENTION WITHOUT CHARGE OR TRIAL.

SO YES, WE DO HAVE TO MONITOR WESTERN DEMOCRACIES AND THAT IS NOT EVEN TALKING ABOUT HOW THEY WAGE WAR.

YOU LOOK AT HOW ISRAEL HAS CONDUCTED ITSELF IN GAZA.

WE ARE AN EQUAL OPPORTUNITY MONITOR AND REPORT HER.

AND WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THE CLASSIC AUTOCRATS BUT ALSO AT THE ESTABLISHED DEMOCRACIES.

>> YOU JUST SAID ABOUT HOW ISRAEL HAS WAGED WAR IN GAZA.

LET ME READ YOU SOMETHING.

YOU SAID NO ONE CAN JUSTIFY A WAR CRIME BY CONTENDING THAT THE OTHER SIDE COMMITTED WAR CRIMES TOO.

I ASSUME YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT ISRAEL.

IS THAT WHAT HAPPENED THERE?

AND WHAT COULD WE HAVE DONE?

>> THAT IS A BASIC RULE OF INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW, WHICH IS, EVEN MORE, EVERYBODY CHARGES THE OTHER SIDE WITH WAR CRIMES.

IF THAT WERE ENOUGH TO JUSTIFY YOUR OWN WAR CRIMES, THERE QUICKLY WOULD BE NO PROTECTION FOR CIVILIANS.

BUT THE RULE IS, EVEN IF ONE SIDE, SAY HAMAS COMMITTED WAR CRIMES ON OCTOBER 7TH, WHICH THEY DID BY KILLING AND ABDUCTING CIVILIANS AND HOLDING THEM FOR MONTHS ON THE BE, THAT IS NOT JUSTIFYING ISRAEL'S OWN WORK CRIMES.

IT IS BOMBARDMENT, ATTACKS WITH HUGELY DISPROPORTIONATE CONSEQUENCES, STARVATION STRATEGY, THE DESTRUCTION OF HOSPITALS.

IT IS IMPORTANT TO KEEP THAT DISTINCTION STRAIGHT AND TO MONITOR EACH SIDE BY THE TERMS OF HUMANITARIAN LAW.

>> WHAT SHOULD WE HAVE DONE?

>> I THINK JOE BIDEN NEVER REALLY USED THE LEVERAGE HE HAD.

HE PRESSED THE BENJAMIN NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT TO END THE STARVATION STRATEGY AND PAY MORE ATTENTION TO THE BOMBING AND THE TOLL THAT WAS TAKEN ON CIVILIANS.

THE ONLY THING HE DID WAS TO SUSPEND THE DELIVERY OF THESE HUGE 2000-POUND BOMBS THAT WERE DECIMATING NEIGHBORHOODS.

OTHERWISE, HE CONTINUED THE MILITARY AID AND CONTINUED THE ARMS SALES AND THEN BENJAMIN NETANYAHU THOUGHT, I WILL PUT UP WITH SOME VERBAL PROTESTS BUT HE IS NOT STOPPING IT.

HE COULD HAVE BEEN TOUGHER AND SAVED MANY LIVES.

>> YOU HAVE WRITTEN TOO ABOUT IT THAT NO ASPECT OF OUR WORK WAS MORE CLOSELY SCRUTINIZED THAN OUR REPORTING ON ISRAEL.

AND I THINK AT TIMES PERSONALLY YOU HAD TO DEAL WITH IT.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> THERE IS NO COUNTRY OUT THERE THAT HAS A MORE ORGANIZED GROUP OF DEFENDERS THAN ISRAEL.

AT HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH, WE KNEW EVERY TIME WE PUBLISH SOMETHING CRITICAL ABOUT ISRAEL, WE WOULD BE DOING THAT.

I PERSONALLY SCRUTINIZE EVERYTHING WE PUT OUT TO MAKE SURE THAT IT WAS FACTUALLY ACCURATE.

THAT IT WAS THE PRINCIPAL OF THE HUMAN RIGHTS STANDARDS AND WE WERE APPLYING THE SAME STANDARDS AS EVERY PLACE ELSE IN THE WORLD.

AND WHEN IT PASSED SCRUTINY, WE PUT IT OUT.

I WAS IN ACCUSED OF BEING ANTI- SEMITIC WHICH IS A VERY COMMON CRITICISM.

I WOULD SAY, YOU ARE CHEAPENING THE CONCEPT OF ANTI-SEMITISM.

THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT CONCEPT.

JEWISH PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD ARE ENDANGERED BY ANTI- SEMITISM.

IF PEOPLE THINK THAT THIS JUST BECOMES AN EXCUSE TO DEFEND ISRAEL, YOU WILL BE HARMING THE JEWISH AROUND THE WORLD AND IT IS IMPORTANT TO SAY THAT IT OTHERWISE, THIS KIND OF MISUSE OF ANTI-SEMITISM WILL CONTINUE TO COVER UP THE ISRAEL WAR CRIMES AND THE LIKE.

>> DO YOU THINK THERE HAVE BEEN ISRAEL WORK CRIMES?

>> THERE IS NO QUESTION.

I HAVE WRITTEN EXTENSIVELY ON THIS.

THE USE OF THESE HUGE BOMBS TO DECIMATE ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOODS IS COMPLETELY CONTRARY TO THE RULES OF WAR THAT SAY YOU HAVE TO TARGET PARTICULAR MILITARY TARGETS AND NOT TREAT ENTIRE NEIGHBORHOODS AS FAIR GAME.

SIMILARLY, ISRAEL IS NOT CLEAR BY THE ISRAELI MEDIA ON REPORTING WOULD JUSTIFY KILLING UP TO 20 CIVILIANS JUST TO GO AFTER ONE HAMAS FIGHTER.

THAT IS A CLEARLY ILLEGAL WAR CRIME.

AND THEN FINALLY, IF YOU LOOK AT THE STARVATION STRATEGY, THE FACT THAT DURING THE CURRENT PERMANENT CEASE- FIRE, SUDDENLY THE FOOD AS WELL AND PEOPLE ARE OKAY.

IT JUST HIGHLIGHTS HOW MUCH THE STARVATION COME UP UNTIL THE BEGINNING OF THE TEMPORARY CEASE-FIRE, WAS A DELIBERATE ISRAELI POLICY.

>> I KNOW THAT CANNOT BE JUSTIFIED BY PALESTINIAN WAR CRIMES BUT WHAT DID YOU THINK WHEN YOU SAW THIS PAST WEEK WHEN THE BODIES OF THE ISRAELI HOSTAGES AND THE WAY THEY WERE TREATED AND HOW THEY WERE RETURNED WERE?

>> HAMAS IS DESPICABLE.

I NEVER DEFEND HAMAS.

THERE ARE MILITARY DICTATORSHIPS IN GAZA.

THE ATROCITIES THEY COMMITTED ON OCTOBER 7th ARE HORRIBLE PICK THEY SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN HOLDING HOSTAGES.

THEY HAVE BEEN MISTREATING THEM AND FORCING THEM TO GO THROUGH THESE CHARADES TO DEMONSTRATE THE POWER OF HAMAS.

MUCH OF THAT IS A WAR CRIME ITSELF.

AS I MENTIONED, THAT DOES NOT JUSTIFY ISRAEL'S OWN WAR CRIMES .

JUST AS HAMAS' TENDENCY TO HIDE BEHIND CIVILIANS TO USE HUMAN SHIELDS DOES NOT RELIEVE ISRAEL OF THE RESPONSIBILITY STILL NOT TO LAUNCH INDISCRIMINATE ATTACKS AND NOT TO ATTACK AND HARM CIVILIANS WOULD BE DISPROPORTIONATE.

>> WHAT YOU THINK IN TERMS OF HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES AND THE PLAN TRUMP HAS BEEN PUSHING TO CLEAR PALESTINIANS OUT OF GAZA?

>> THIS WOULD BE NOT ONLY A MASSIVE WAR CRIME BUT IT WOULD BE A CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY.

ARTICLE 49 OF THE CONVENTION PROHIBITS FORCIBLY EXPORTING OR TO DISPELLING THE OCCUPIED TERRITORY.

TRUMP IS RIPPING THAT UP AND SAYING, LET'S DO IT ANYWAY.

THE REST OF THE ARAB WORLD IS SAYING, NO WAY.

THEY REMEMBER 1948, THE CATASTROPHE WERE PALESTINIANS WERE FORCED OUT OF THE NEW STATE OF ISRAEL, GIVEN A ONE- WAY TICKET AND NEVER ALLOWED BACK.

THAT CLEARLY, AS TRUMP SAID, IS THE PLAN WITH THE 2 MILLION PALESTINIANS THAT ARE LIVING IN GAZA TODAY.

THE REST OF THE ARAB STATES ARE SAYING, NO WAY.

WE WON'T BE COMPLICIT IN THAT WERE CRIME.

>> WE TALK ABOUT HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES AND YOU OFTEN FOCUS RIGHTLY ON VLADIMIR PUTIN AND WITH WHAT RUSSIA HAS DONE AND WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN UKRAINE.

WHAT WOULD HAPPEN WITH THE NEXT TWO WEEKS, IF THERE IS A PEACE IMPOSED OR MAYBE JUST A PEACE AGREED TO IN THE REGION IN WHICH VLADIMIR PUTIN GETS TO KEEP A LOT OF DISPUTED TERRITORY AND UKRAINE IS NOT ALLOWED IN NATO?

>> WALTER, I THINK IN FACT THOSE TWO POSSIBILITIES ARE QUITE LIKELY.

BUT THAT IS NOT REALLY THE ISSUE.

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY FEELS THAT IT WILL BE POSSIBLE FOR UKRAINE TO RECAPTURE THE TERRITORY THAT RUSSIA HAS OCCUPIED.

A FORMAL NATO INVITATION IS JUST NOT ON THE TABLE.

BUT WHAT UKRAINE IS LOOKING FOR IS A REAL SECURITY GUARANTEE.

A GUARANTEE THAT RUSSIA WON'T USE A CEASE-FIRE TO JUST REARM AND RE- INVADE IN A YEAR OR TWO.

AND THAT IS WHAT TRUMP NEEDS TO OFFER.

THE EUROPEANS ARE VERY MUCH WILLING TO PUT THAT ON THE TABLE .

IF TRUMP JUST SAYS, TAKE A CEASE-FIRE AND GO HOME AND WE ARE NOT GOING TO WORRY ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE, THAT WOULD BE ESSENTIALLY THE APPEASEMENT, THE 21st CENTURY EQUIVALENT OF CHAMBERLAIN.

THAT WOULD BE A HORRIBLE DEAL THAT TRUMP HAS SUPPOSEDLY BEEN IN A -- MASTER NEGOTIATOR AND WOULD BE COMPLICIT IN.

>> WHAT IS THE ROLE OF PURSUING HUMAN RIGHTS?

>> AND TODAY'S WORLD, EVERY GOVERNMENT HAS TO PRETEND TO RESPECT HUMAN RIGHTS.

THIS IS A BASIC ASPECT OF THEIR LEGITIMACY BUT WE KNOW THAT MANY GOVERNMENTS DON'T.

AND WHAT HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH DOES IN A SENSE IS TO SHINE A SPOTLIGHT ON THAT DISCREPANCY.

WE INVESTIGATE CAREFULLY WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

WE REPORT ON MISCONDUCT.

THAT DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PRETENSE AND REALITY IS EMBARRASSING.

IT IS DELEGITIMIZING AND IT IS SHAMEFUL.

GOVERNMENTS GO TO GREAT LENGTHS .

IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT A DICTATOR HAS PERSONAL REMORSE.

WE ARE NOT TRYING TO DO A PSYCHOLOGICAL CONVERSION HERE.

BUT IN ORDER TO MAINTAIN LEGITIMACY AND MAINTAIN THIS PRETENSE THAT THEY ARE SERVING THEIR PEOPLE AND NOT THEMSELVES, THEY WANT TO BE SEEN AS HUMAN RIGHTS RESPECTER'S.

THAT IS WHAT GIVES THE POWER TO SHOW THE PRETENSES NOT NOT REAL.

>> AND FIGHTING FOR HUMAN RIGHTS AROUND THE WORLD, I THINK YOU SOMETIMES PRESSURE THE U.S. GOVERNMENT TO TAKE A STANCE IN FAVOR OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

HOW DO YOU DIVIDE UP WHAT A NONGOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATION LIKE YOURSELF SHOULD DO AND WHAT DO YOU THINK THE U.S. GOVERNMENT SHOULD DO?

>> HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH IN ADDITION TO REPORTING ON HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS AND SHINING A SPOTLIGHT OF SHAME ON THE ABUSER, WE ALSO GO TO INFLUENTIAL GOVERNMENTS THAT REPORT TO SUPPORT HUMAN RIGHTS AND THEIR FOREIGN POLICIES.

NOT JUST UNITED STATES BUT MOST OF EUROPE AND PARTS OF LATIN AMERICA.

SO THAT, IN A SENSE, DIPLOMATIC SIDE, IS VERY IMPORTANT.

WE WILL SAY, WHAT DOES THE TARGET GOVERNMENT CARE ABOUT AND HOW CAN WE DEPRIVE THEM OF THAT AND SO THEY IMPROVE THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS PRACTICES?

THEY ALWAYS WANT SOMETHING.

YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT WHAT THEY WANT.

IT COULD BE A MILITARY AID PACKAGE.

IT COULD BE AN ARMS SALE.

IT COULD BE PREFERENTIAL TRADE BENEFITS.

SOMETIMES IT IS JUST GETTING INVITED TO A FANCY SUMMIT SO THEY CAN BE PHOTOGRAPHED WITH LEGITIMATE LEADERS TO SHOW THE FOLKS BACK HOME THAT, I'M OKAY.

LOOK WHO I HANG OUT WITH.

WE WILL GO TO THE LEADER OF THE DEMOCRATIC COUNTRY AND SAY, DON'T GIVE THEM THAT UNTIL THEY CHANGE.

TRADITIONALLY, WE DO THIS A LOT WITH THE U.S. GOVERNMENT.

UNDER TRUMP, I DON'T HAVE GREAT CONFIDENCE.

WE HAVE LIVED THERE TRUMP BEFORE AND WE HAVE DONE WITH OTHERS.

I DESCRIBED IN THE BOOK AND I OPEN UP AN EFFORT TO GET PUTIN TO STOP BOMBING CIVILIANS IN NORTHWESTERN SYRIA.

THIS WAS DURING THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

TRUMP WAS NOT GOING TO BE A RELIABLE ALLY.

BUT IT WAS BY TURNING TO GERMAN CHANCELLOR ANGELA MERKEL, FRENCH PRESIDENT EMMANUEL MACRON, AND THE TURKISH PRESIDENT, ERDOGAN, WE PERSUADED THOSE THREE TO PRESSURE PUTIN TO STOP BOMBING HOSPITALS AND APARTMENTS AND IT STOPPED IN MARCH OF 2020.

A STEP ENTIRELY FOR THREE YEARS AND IT REVIVED A LITTLE BIT AFTER THAT.

AND THAT WAS THE TERRITORY FOR WHICH THEY CAME TO OVERTHROW THE ASSAD GOVERNMENT.

THAT MADE A HUGE DIFFERENCE FOR THE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND.

THEY NO LONGER FEAREDDEATH FROM THE SKY WAYS.

WAS POSSIBLE REALLY BECAUSE WE WORKED WITH DEMOCRACIES TO PUT PRESSURE ON THE TARGET.

>> YOU BEGIN YOUR CHAPTER ON CHINA BY ARGUING THAT IT IS THE BIGGEST THREAT TO HUMAN RIGHTS TODAY.

AND HERE IS A SENTENCE THAT WAS NOTABLE.

BEIJING'S ACTIONS, IF UNCHECKED, PUTS A DYSTOPIAN FUTURE IN WHICH NO ONE IS BEYOND THE REACH OF CHINESE SENSORS.

UNPACK THAT FOR ME.

>> THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT IS THE GREATEST THREAT.

IT DEVOTES ENORMOUS RESOURCES FROM THE WORLD'S SECOND-LARGEST ECONOMY, TO TRY TO SUPPRESS CRITICISM OF IT AROUND THE WORLD .

IT IS NOT SIMPLY THAT IT SUPPRESSES DISSENT WITHIN CHINA BUT IT USES THE THREAT OF DENYING ACCESS TO THE CHINESE MARKET TO CENSOR PEOPLE AROUND THE WORLD.

IT USES TRANSNATIONAL REPRESSION.

IF YOU ARE A MORE WEAK DISSIDENTS IN NEW YORK, YOUR PARENTS AT HOME WILL BE THREATENED IF YOU DON'T SHUT UP.

AND SO THEY ARE QUITE RUTHLESS IN TRYING TO PREVENT CRITICISM.

THEY GO THE NEXT STEP.

THEY ARE TRYING TO REWRITE HUMAN RIGHTS LAW WHICH IS QUITE DETAILED ABOUT NOT ONLY THINGS LIKE FREEDOM FROM THE MEDIA OR FREE SPEECH OR THE RIGHT TO DUE PROCESS, BUT ALSO ECONOMIC AND SOCIAL RIGHTS, THE RIGHT TO HOUSING.

THEY WANT TO REDUCE EVERYTHING TO BASIC JUST BASICALLY, ARE WE EXPANDING THE ECONOMY?

TO BE PROVIDE SECURITY, AND ARE PEOPLE HAPPY?

HOW DO THEY MEASURE THAT.

IS A RADICAL DUMBING DOWN OF THE DETAILED HUMAN RIGHTS STANDARD TO TRY TO MAKE XI JINPING LOOK GOOD.

TO SAY THE ECONOMY IS GROWING AND IT IS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW.

THAT IS THE REAL THREAT TO THE HUMAN RIGHTS MOVEMENT AND NO ONE ELSE IS ATTEMPTING SOMETHING SO RADICAL.

>> THERE HAVE BEEN THESE CUTS IN USAID AND DOGE AND ELON MUSK CUTTING.

HOW IS THE POTENTIAL DECIMATION OF THE SOFT BELLAIRE AFFECT OUR ABILITY ON HUMAN RIGHTS?

>> WITH THE GLOBAL EFFECT OF USAID COME ON THE ONE HAND, IT IS AN INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT INSTITUTION TO PROVIDE BASIC HEALTHCARE AND BASIC EDUCATION AND BASIC SANITATION.

THINGS PEOPLE NEED IN POOR COUNTRIES ALL THE TIME.

THE OTHER THING I'M WORRIED ABOUT IS THAT BY DESTROYING USAID, TRUMP IS ESSENTIALLY GIVING A GIFT TO AUTOCRATS.

A BIG PART OF WHAT USAID DOES IS MAYBE NOT SO WIDELY KNOWN BUT THAT IT PROMOTES HUMAN RIGHTS DEFENDERS, INDEPENDENT JOURNALISTS, DEMOCRACY REPORTERS AND THE KINDS OF INDEPENDENT VOICES THAT AUTOCRATS HATE.

AND A LOT OF THESE ARE BEING FORCED TO SHUT DOWN BECAUSE TRUMP HAS TURNED UP THE SPEC IT.

>> DO YOU THINK THE HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH WILL TAKE ON DONALD TRUMP?

>> WE HAVE TO.

IN OTHER WORDS, IF HIS DEPORTATION SCHEME WITH UNDOCUMENTED MIGRATION LEADS TO FAMILY SEPARATION OR NEEDLESS ATTENTION OR VARIOUS PHYSICAL ABUSES AGAINST MIGRANTS, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT IF HE DOES HAS A TAX ON DEI REINTRODUCING RACIALIST TERMINATION TO THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, WE HAVE TO LOOK AT THAT.

AND OF COURSE IN HIS FOREIGN POLICY, I DO STILL THINK THAT THERE ARE OPENINGS TO MOVE TRUMP.

BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND, YES, THIS GUY CANNOT FIND AN AUTOGRAPH HE DOESN'T WANT TO COZY UP TO.

HE ALSO SEES HIMSELF AS A MASTER DEALMAKER.

AND THAT GIVES US AN OPENING.

BECAUSE IF HE IGNORES HUMAN RIGHTS, HE WILL MAKE BAD DEALS PICK IN GAZA, HE PLAYED A USEFUL ROLE IN FORCING BENJAMIN NETANYAHU TO AGREE TO THE CURRENT TEMPORARY CEASE-FIRE.

IF HE WANTS THIS BIGGER REGIONAL DEAL, THE NORMALIZATION OF RELATIONS BETWEEN SAUDI ARABIA AND ISRAEL, HE WILL HAVE TO PUSH BENJAMIN NETANYAHU TO ACCEPT THE PALESTINIAN STATE.

IF HE DID THAT COME HE WOULD DESERVE THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE.

I THINK WE CAN PUSH HIM IN A POSITIVE DIRECTION, PLAYING ON HIS EGO, PLAYING ON HIS DESIRE FOR RECOGNITION.

AND IT MAY OR MAY NOT WORK BUT I THINK THIS IS OUR BEST STRATEGY TO MAKE PROGRESS.

>> KENNETH ROTH, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> I ENJOYED THE CONVERSATION.

>> THAT IS IT FOR THE PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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