>> HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

>>> THE FBI UNDERGOES ONE OF ITS MOST RADICAL TRANSFORMATIONS IN ITS 115 YEAR HISTORY.

FORMER DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE FBI, ANDREW McCABE, JOINS THE SHOW.

>>> AS ISRAELI TANKS ROLL INTO THE WEST BANK, WILL THE CEASE- FIRE REACH PHASE 2?

WE GET THE LATEST ON THE GROUND.

>>> THOUSANDS HAVE AND KILLED IN FIGHTING IN THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF CONGO AMID FEARS OF A BIGGER WAR.

THE PRESIDENT AND CEO OF THE NEW INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP.

>>> THEY HAVE THEIR BOOTS ON PUTIN'S THROAT AND THEN THEY COULD NEGOTIATE A CEASE-FIRE?

>> WALTER ISAACSON INTERVIEWS BILL BROWNER WHO WAS ONCE ONE OF THE LARGEST INVESTORS IN RUSSIA, ON HIS ATTEMPTS TO END THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

>> AMANPOUR AND COMPANY MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, TIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

THE PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

SETON J MELVIN.

THE PETERSON AND JOAN COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.

NEW YORK CITY, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR PICK THE FBI UNDERGOING THE MOST RADICAL TRANSFORMATION OF ITS LEADERSHIP IN ITS HISTORY.

THE NEW DIRECTOR, KASH PATEL , AND ARDENT TRUMP SUPPORTER WAS NARROWLY CONFIRMED BY THE SENATE LAST WEEK.

HE WILL BE JOINED BY DAN BONGINO IS THE DEPUTY DIRECTOR.

THE POSITION IS USUALLY RUN BY A CAREER FBI AGENT .

DAN BONGINO IS A FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT TURNED RIGHT-WING BROADCASTER.

HE'S MEANT TO BE APOLITICAL TO BE NEUTRAL WITH TWO IDEOLOGUES AT THE HELM.

THAT'S THE QUESTION NOW, BRIAN TODD HAS MORE ON THE LATEST CONTROVERSIAL APPOINTMENT.

>> Reporter: PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS TWO OF HIS MOST LOYAL CHAMPIONS HEADING THE FBI.

AND NOW, 50-YEAR-OLD DAN BONGINO, A FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT AS DEPUTY DIRECTOR.

>> I GOT A CALL FROM THE PRESIDENT AND HE COULDN'T HAVE BEEN NICER.

IT'S A LOT TO WALK AWAY FROM.

>> AND A LOT TO WALK INTO ACCORDING TO THE FOREVER FORMER FBI OFFICIALS.

>> FOR SOMEONE WHO'S NEVER BEEN IN FBI AGENT, IT'S TROUBLESOME.

I HAVE NO PROBLEMS WITH DAN BONGINO , HIS INTELLIGENCE, THE FACT THAT HE SERVED WITH THE SECRET SERVICE, THAT'S A BONUS.

THIS IS GOING WAY OUT OF THE LINE OF WHAT THE FBI HAS DONE IN THE PAST.

>> Reporter: HARTLEY BECAUSE TIME ON THE AIR SLAMMING THE FBI FOR ITS INVESTIGATIONS OF DONALD TRUMP.

>> THE FBI IS LOST, IT'S BROKEN.

IT'S IRREDEEMABLY CORRUPTED AT THIS POINT.

>> Reporter: HE SERVED AS A NEW YORK CITY POLICE OFFICER IN THE 90s AND LATER JOINED THE SECRET SERVICE AND SERVED UNDER PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA'S PROTECTIVE DETAIL.

I INTERVIEWED HIM WITH THE WHEN HE LEFT THE SECRET SERVICE.

I ASKED HIM OF HIS NEWLY REVEALED POLITICAL LOYALTY ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE FROM THE PRESIDENT HE GUARDED WITH HIS LIFE.

>> I WANT TO SAY PERSONALLY I'VE GOT ENORMOUS RESPECT BUT I DISAGREE WITH THE IDEOLOGY.

THE COUNTRIES GOING ON THE WRONG PATH.

>> SINCE THE FAILED BID FOR THE SENATE, HIS MEDIA PROFILE SKYROCKETED BECOMING A STAR AND A REGULAR ON FOX NEWS HOSTING HIS OWN POPULAR RADIO SHOWS AND PODCASTS SPARROW..

HE SUPPORTED PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FALSE CLAIMS THAT THE 2020 ELECTION WAS STOLEN.

>> WE HAD AN ELECTION WITH SUSPECT BEHAVIOR.

>> ALL THE WHILE EARNING ADMIRATION FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP.

>> DAN BONGINO.

>> NOW AS THE HANDS-ON OFFICIAL HANDLING THE BUREAU'S DAILY OPERATIONS, HE HAS A UNIQUE CHALLENGE.

>> THE ONE THING YOU DO NOT WANT TO DO IS TO LOSE THE LOYALTY OF THE FBI.

WHEN THEY SEE THEIR OWN MANAGEMENT APPEARING TO GO OFF THE RAIL, YOU'VE LOST THEM.

>> Reporter: AS FOR HOW THEIR RANK AND FILE FEELS ABOUT DAN BONGINO, ACCORDING TO AN EMAIL OBTAINED BY CNN THAT WAS SENT TO ITS MEMBERS BEFORE DONALD TRUMP POSTED THAT HE HAD BEEN SELECTED AS THE DEPUTY DIRECTOR, THE ASSOCIATION REPRESENTING THOUSANDS OF AGENTS SAID THEY HAD BEEN TOLD BY KASH PATEL THAT THE DIRECTOR WOULD COME WITHIN THE RANKS OF THE FBI.

CONTACTED BY CNN, THE ASSOCIATION DECLINED TO COMMENT ON THE APPOINTMENT OF DAN BONGINO.

>> OUR NEXT GUEST SERVED AS THE DEPUTY DIRECTOR OF THE FBI, THE SAME POSITION THAT DAN BONGINO IS NOW ASSUMING.

ANDREW McCABE WAS FIRED IN MARCH 2018 AFTER OPENING AN INVESTIGATION INTO PRESIDENT TRUMP DURING HIS FIRST ADMINISTRATION AND JOINED THE PROGRAM FROM WASHINGTON DC.

ANDREW, THANK YOU FOR TAKING THE TIME TO SPEAK WITH US .

AT THE SAME POSITION THAT DAN BONGINO WILL HAVE.

YOU CALL ANYONE HAVING THAT POSITION WITHOUT PREVIOUS EXPERIENCE DANGEROUS.

EXPLAIN WHY.

>> IT'S AN ENORMOUS JOB.

YOU ARE SINGULARLY RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL OF THE FBI'S INTELLIGENCE COLLECTION AND INVESTIGATIVE ACTIVITY.

30,000 PEOPLE, 12,000 WHO ARE FBI AGENTS WORKING AROUND THE GLOBE, NONE OF THE EASY QUESTIONS AND UP ON YOUR DESK.

YOU HAVE OVER 80 DIRECT REPORTS, 56 OF THOSE PEOPLE RUN ENTIRE FIELD OFFICES SO THE ENTIRETY OF THE WORK OF THE FBI IS EVENTUALLY AT YOUR DESK.

IT'S ON YOUR HANDS.

YOU ARE EXPECTED TO BE ABLE TO MAKE QUICK AND INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT DECISIONS ABOUT VERY HARD ISSUES EVERY DAY.

WHEN THERE'S A CRISIS, IT'S THE FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR WHO CONVENES THE CRISIS.

THE COORDINATION CALL, DISPATCHING ASSETS AND CAPABILITIES FROM AROUND THE BUREAU, TO THE CRISIS SCENE.

HELPING AMERICANS AND HELPING INVESTIGATORS GETTING TO THE BOTTOM OF WHAT'S GOING ON.

THERE'S NO ON-THE-JOB TRAINING, PERIOD, FOR THE FBI DEPUTY DIRECTOR.

THAT'S WHY OVER IT'S 117 YEAR HISTORY, IT'S ALWAYS BEEN INEXPERIENCED FBI AGENT WHO SITS IN THAT CHAIR.

SOMEONE WHO'S DEEPLY FAMILIAR WITH THE CAPABILITIES OF THE FBI, WITH THE PROBLEMS AND MISTAKES OF THE FBI, AND ALSO WITH THE LEGAL GUIDELINES WITHIN WHICH WE FUNCTION.

WITHOUT HAVING THE MASTERY OF THIS ON DAY ONE, YOU'RE IN A TOUGH SPOT.

>> YOU NOT ONLY HAVE SOMEONE IN POSITION AS THE FBI DIRECTOR AS WELL SO THE TWO TOP JOBS WITHOUT REAL FBI EXPERIENCE, KASH PATEL DID SERVE AT THE DOJ.

THOUGH WITH THIS JOB FOR DAN BONGINO IN PARTICULAR , HE WAS A FORMER NYPD OFFICER, A FORMER SECRET SERVICE OFFICER AS WELL.

THEN HE MADE A TURN TO A FAR RIGHT CONSPIRACY THEORIST AND PODCAST HOST.

ANOTHER REQUIREMENT, I WOULD IMAGINE IN YOUR VIEW FOR THIS JOB, IT'S NONPARTISANSHIP.

GIVEN THE EVOLUTION WE HAD SEEN DAN BONGINO TAKE AND KASH PATEL OVER THE LAST COURSE OF THE DECADE OR SO, YOU THINK THEY COULD APPROACH THESE JOBS IN A NONPARTISAN MANNER?

>> THAT'S REALLY HARD TO IMAGINE DOING SUCCESSFULLY.

I SAY THIS BECAUSE, AS YOU'VE NOTED, THE SELECTION OF THESE INDIVIDUALS, KASH PATEL BY HIS OWN ADMISSION WAS A SURROGATE TRUMP , HE APPEARED ON CAMPAIGN STOPS AND RALLIES FOR DONALD TRUMP AND PRODUCED PROPAGANDA SUPPORTING HIM, THEN DAN BONGINO WHO'S A VERY OUTSPOKEN --FIRST OF ALL A FORMER WANNABE POLITICIAN HIMSELF RUNNING FOR POLITICAL OFFICE THREE TIMES AND HAS BEEN EXTREMELY DEVOTED TO DONALD TRUMP.

VERY PUBLICLY OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS IN HIS MEDIA WORK.

TO BE CLEAR, THEIR OWN PERSONAL POLITICAL PREFERENCES AREN'T A PROBLEM.

DAN BONGINO IS ENTITLED TO HIS POLITICAL POINT OF VIEW LIKE ANY AMERICAN IS BUT WHERE THIS BECOMES A PROBLEM IS THAT HE'S SO OVERTLY POLITICAL IN HIS SPEECH AND IN HIS SUPPORT FOR THE PRESIDENT HE CREATES THE IMPRESSION OF BEING THERE AT THE PRESIDENT'S DISCRETION.

BEING THERE TO EXECUTE THE PRESIDENTS WILL, RATHER THAN TO FOLLOW THE FACTS AND THE LAW ACROSS THE COURSE OF THE VERY IMPORTANT INVESTIGATIONS.

THOSE JOBS, THE DIRECTOR AND DEPUTY DIRECTOR HAVE ALWAYS BEEN HELD BY CAREER PROFESSIONALS IN TERMS OF THE DEPUTY DIRECTOR AND A POLITICAL APPOINTEE WHOSE COME FROM ONE PARTY OR ANOTHER BUT IN MOST RESPECTS HAS BEEN A LAWYER, A JUDGE, A DOJ EXECUTIVE, A LEADER WHO EXHIBITED NEUTRALITY IN THE COMMENTS AND IN THEIR CONDUCT.

THAT'S IMPORTANT IN THE POST J EDGAR HOOVER FBI.

THE FBI TRIED TO REFORM FROM THE INITIAL UPBRINGING AS THE POLITICAL ARM OF THE WHITE HOUSE.

IT'S BEEN 60 YEARS AGO IN THE PAST.

THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF TIME AND EFFORT SPENT ON ESTABLISHING THE INDEPENDENCE THAT AMERICANS EXPECT FROM THE FBI BUT WE SEEM TO BE AT A PRECIPICE WHERE THAT VERY INDEPENDENCE HAS BEEN THROWN OVER.

>> I'M GLAD YOU BROUGHT THIS EXPLAIN WHY THIS SHOULD MATTER, THE DECADES LONG HISTORY OF INDEPENDENCE FROM THE PRESIDENTS AND THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH AND WHY THAT SHOULD CONCERN AMERICANS NOW TO HEAR THESE WORDS COMING OUT OF YOUR MOUTH, BOTH FROM A NATIONAL SECURITY PERSPECTIVE AND ALSO FROM THEIR OWN CIVIL LIBERTIES.

>> SO LET'S REMEMBER WHERE WE COME FROM.

NOT THE FIRST FBI DIRECTOR BECAUSE TECHNICALLY THERE WERE ONES BEFORE HIM BUT THE MOST SIGNIFICANT EARLY FBI DIRECTOR WAS J EDGAR HOOVER WHO SERVED OVER 40 YEARS IN THAT ROLE.

DURING THAT COURSE OF TIME, HE HAD CONDUCTED --HE WAS THE POLITICAL INTELLIGENCE ARM OF THE WHITE HOUSE.

HE USED THE MASSIVE INVESTIGATIVE AUTHORITY AND POWER OF THE FBI TO SERVE THE POLITICAL GOALS OF EVERY PRESIDENT BOTH DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN.

BY DOING THIS, HE VIOLATED THE CIVIL LIBERTIES AND RIGHTS OF AMERICANS REPEATEDLY.

HE WENT AFTER PEOPLE WHO ARE PERCEIVED AS ENEMIES TO THE PRESIDENT, USING ELECTRONIC SURVEILLANCE TO COLLECT INFORMATION ON PEOPLE LIKE REVEREND MARTIN LUTHER KING JR. AND OTHERS, PEOPLE WHO WERE PERCEIVED AS ENEMIES OF THE WHITE HOUSE.

AFTER HOOVER, IN THE DECADES AFTER HOOVER, THE FBI SPENT A LOT OF EFFORT DISTANCING ITSELF, REFORMING ITSELF FROM THAT REGRETFUL HISTORY.

HAD HELP IN THE FORM OF CONGRESS AND THINGS LIKE THE CHURCH COMMITTEE AND THE PIKE COMMISSION.

THE LAWS WERE PASSED TO ENSURE WE DIDN'T DO THINGS LIKE VIOLATE AMERICANS RIGHTS.

IT'S BEEN IN THE MORE RECENT TIME THAT PEOPLE HAVE BECOME ACCUSTOMED TO AN FBI WHICH IS INDEPENDENT OF THE WHITE HOUSE AND FOLLOWS THE LAW, FOLLOWING THE FACTS AND REPORTS THE FACTS POLITICAL ADVANTAGE OR INFLUENCE AND BACK TO THE ATTORNEY GENERAL AND PURSUES NEUTRAL PROSECUTIONS IN COURT.

THAT'S THE WAY THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM WAS SET UP TO FUNCTION.

SO WE HAVE THESE VERY CRUCIAL ATTRIBUTES OF A FREE AND FAIR DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY IN WHICH THE LAWS ARE NEUTRALLY AND FAIRLY ENFORCED THE SAME WAY AGAINST ALL PEOPLE.

THOSE TENANTS OF THIS COUNTRY, I THINK THEY ARE NOW IN JEOPARDY.

NEW HAVE INSTITUTIONS LIKE THE FBI WHO ARE POISED TO FUNCTION AT THE BECK AND CALL OF THE PRESIDENT.

>> GIVEN THE HIGH PROFILES OF BOTH KASH PATEL DAN BONGINO THAT THERE'S THIS EXTENSIVE RECORD OF COMMENTS THEY'VE MADE ABOUT THE TYPE OF POLICIES THEY WOULD LIKE TO SEE PURSUED, BY THE FBI AND NOW THAT THEY'VE GOT THE TOP TWO JOBS, THE QUESTION IS, WILL THEY ACTUALLY ACT ON THEM?

I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY A SOUND FROM KASH PATEL ON A PODCAST FROM 2023.

>> WE WILL FIND THE CONSPIRATORS, NOT JUST IN GOVERNMENT BUT WITHIN THE MEDIA, WE WILL COME AFTER THE PEOPLE IN THE MEDIA WHO LIED ABOUT AMERICAN CITIZENS AND HELPED BIDEN BREAK PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS.

WHETHER IT'S CRIMINALLY OR CIVILLY WE WILL FIGURE IT OUT BUT WE WILL PUT YOU ON NOTICE.

STEVE, THIS IS WHY THEY HATE US.

>> THEN THERE'S THIS POST FROM DAN BONGINO FROM 2022 AFTER THE FBI RAIDED THE RESORT AFTER CONFIDENTIAL DOCUMENTS WERE TAKEN FROM THEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AS HE LEFT OFFICE.

HE SAID, EVERYONE INVOLVED IN THE DOJ FBI ABOMINATION FROM THE MANAGEMENT DOWN TO THE AGENCY MUST BE TERMINATED WHEN THE TYRANTS ARE THROWN OUT OF OFFICE.

WHAT ARE THE RISKS HERE AND TOP CONCERNS THAT YOU HAVE WHEN YOU HEAR STATEMENTS LIKE THIS FROM NUMBER ONE AND NUMBER TWO AT THE FBI?

>> THERE'S A LOT OF CONCERNS WHICH COME UP FOR ME IMMEDIATELY.

NOT THE LEAST OF WHICH IS THAT ON THE FIRST HAND YOU'VE GOT KASH PATEL DOING THINGS CLEARLY ILLEGAL.

FBI DOESN'T TARGET THE MEDIA OR COME AFTER MEMBERS OF THE MEDIA, THERE'S A FIRST AMENDMENT IN THE COUNTRY WHICH PROTECTS MEDIA AND NEWSGATHERING FUNCTIONS AND HE SEEMS TO BE GOING RIGHT PAST THAT AND MAKES A REFERENCE TO PURSUING THEM WITH CRIMINAL OR CIVIL WAYS, I'M NOT SURE WHAT THIS MEANS SINCE THE FBI DOESN'T WORK IN CIVIL WAYS.

IT'S A CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIVE ORGANIZATION.

DAN BONGINO, WE ARE GOING TO THROW OUT AND FIRE ALL OF THE AGENTS WHO WERE INVOLVED IN THE LAWFUL EXECUTION OF A SEARCH WARRANT SIGNED BY A FEDERAL JUDGE.

THE BLATANT DISREGARD FOR THE LAW, FOR THE RIGHTS AND PRIVILEGES OF THOSE VALUED EMPLOYEES WHO'VE BEEN DOING THEIR JOB WITH THEIR SUPERVISORS , THE OVERSIGHT, CONSISTENT WITH THE LAW AND FBI POLICY IS OUTRAGEOUS.

DAN BONGINO SAID IN A POST RECENTLY THAT DONALD TRUMP SHOULD SIMPLY IGNORE THE RULINGS OF FEDERAL JUDGES WHO ARE RULING AGAINST SOME OF HIS ISSUING RULINGS AGAINST SOME OF HIS EXECUTIVE ORDERS.

WE ARE GOING TO NOW HAVE A DEPUTY DIRECTOR IN THE FBI WHO'S ADVOCATING IGNORING THE LAWFUL COURT ORDERS OF FEDERAL JUDGES.

TO ME THAT IS AN INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS EXAMPLE TO SET FOR THE 12,000 FEDERAL LAW- ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS HE IS NOW RESPONSIBLE FOR.

DON'T WANT TO TELL THAT WORKFORCE THAT THEY SHOULD BEGIN IGNORING THE LAW AND IGNORING THE LAWYERS IN FEDERAL COURT JUDGES.

IT'S SO FUNDAMENTAL WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO POINT THIS OUT BUT HERE WE ARE.

>> IT'S IMPORTANT TO POINT THIS OUT AND FOR VIEWERS TO HEAR THIS FIRSTHAND.

ANOTHER JOB OF THE FBI, ONE OF A FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE FOR NATIONAL SECURITY AGAINST TERRORISM THREATS TO THE UNITED STATES.

I WANT TO PLAY A SOUND FOR YOU FROM CHRIS CRISTI WHO WILL REMIND OUR VIEWERS IN 2016, A REPUBLICAN WHO'D BEEN SITTING ON TRUMP'S TRANSITION TEAM AT THAT TIME, HEADING THE TRANSITION TEAM ADVISING TRUMP DURING 2016 TO APPOINT CHRIS WRAY TO THE POSITION OF BE FBI DIRECTOR.

CHRIS WRAY WE SHOULD NOTE, THERE'S A TENURE TERM GIVEN TO THE DIRECTORS KNOWING DONALD TRUMP WOULD FIRE HIM, HE RESIGNED BEFORE THIS HAPPENED.

I KNOW THAT'S SOMETHING YOU WISHED THAT HE HAD NOT DONE AT THE TIME BUT I'D LIKE TO PLAY A SOUND FOR YOU ADDRESSING THE ISSUE OF NATIONAL SECURITY ON A PODCAST FROM TWO MONTHS AGO.

>> I THINK THAT WHAT TRUMP IS ONCE AGAIN DISCOUNTING , WHETHER KASH PATEL WINDS UP THERE OR SOMETHING ELSE, THE FIRING OF WRAY WILL SERIOUSLY DAMAGE THE MORALE INSIDE OF THE FBI AND I WANT TO SAY THIS NOW AND GO ON THE RECORD, IF THERE'S A TERRORISM ATTACK IN THIS COUNTRY OVER THE NEXT FOUR YEARS AND HE PUT SOMEONE WHO HE'S JUDGED TO NOT BE QUALIFIED, IT'S THE DIRECTOR OF THE FBI, THAT BLOOD WILL BE ON HIS HANDS.

>> THAT BLOOD WILL BE ON THE HANDS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP AND SINCE THEN WE KNOW KASH PATEL WAS NOMINATED AND IS NOW THE FBI DIRECTOR AFTER HAVING BEEN CONFIRMED.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THOSE WORDS FROM CHRIS CRISTI?

>> HE'S DEAD RIGHT, DEAD RIGHT.

I COULD TELL YOU THERE WILL BE ANOTHER TERRORIST ATTACK IN THIS COUNTRY.

HAD ONE ON NEW YEAR'S EVE JUST A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO WHEN AND ISIS INSPIRED INDIVIDUAL DROVE THE TRUCK THROUGH A CROWD OF TOURISTS IN NEW ORLEANS.

TERRORISM IS ON THE RISE, IT NEVER GOES AWAY.

KASH PATEL AND DAN BONGINO WILL HAVE THEIR MOMENT .

WHETHER IT'S A CALL IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT OR A BOND THAT GOES OFF IN THE MIDDLE OF THE DAY, I HAVE EXPERIENCED THESE THINGS PERSONALLY.

AND THIS HAPPENS IT WILL BE ON THEM TO MARSHAL THE SIGNIFICANT RESOURCES OF THE FBI FROM ACROSS THE GLOBE WHERE THEY LIVE AND ARE APPLIED EVERY SINGLE DAY.

TO USE THIS CAPABILITY IN AN INTELLIGENT AND LAWFUL WAY IMMEDIATELY.

THERE'S NO TIME FOR EITHER MAN TO LEARN THE JOB OR TO TAKE THE TIME IT WOULD REQUIRE FOR THEM TO UNDERSTAND THE FBI, THE PEOPLE, THE ORGANIZATION AND HOW THEY WORK.

THERE'S NO TIME.

WHEN THAT CALL GOES OFF IN THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT, YOU'VE GOT TO PERFORM TO SAVE LIVES AND TO PROTECT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

YOU DON'T GET THAT OPPORTUNITY.

>> AS WE NOTED, KASH PATEL HAD WRITTEN ACCORDING TO MULTIPLE SOURCES PROMISING THE DEPUTY WOULD BE SOMEONE WHO HAD SERVED WITHIN THE FBI FROM THEIR OWN RANKS AND THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

SO I'M CURIOUS WHAT YOU ARE HEARING FROM YOUR FORMER COLLEAGUES, FROM THE FBI AGENTS FROM THERE AND NOW, HOW THEY ARE RESPONDING TO THE CHANGE IN LEADERSHIP?

>> I'M HEARING FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE FBI, PEOPLE WHO WERE THERE, PEOPLE WHO RECENTLY LEFT.

IT'S CLEAR TO ME, MORALE IS AT AN ALL-TIME LOW WHICH IS UNDERSTANDABLE.

THE FBI HAVE LONG SINCE SEE THE BUREAU AND THEIR PLACE WITHIN IT HAS BECOME FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT FROM OTHER ORGANIZATIONS.

PRIMARILY BECAUSE WE HAVE THE DIRECTORS WHO SERVED FOR 10 YEARS.

A TEN-YEAR TERM CREATING --TO PROTECT THEM FROM THE CONSTANTLY SHIFTING WINDS IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

WE HAVE HAD A SERIES OF UNBELIEVABLY QUALIFIED, CAPABLE, SMART DEDICATED, PATRIOTIC PEOPLE WHO SERVED IN THIS ROLE.

I THINK THEY'RE WAKING UP TO THE REALITY THAT THE HIGHEST LEVELS OF LEADERSHIP WITHIN THE ORGANIZATION ARE THE DIRECTOR AND THE DEPUTY DIRECTOR, PEOPLE WHO'D SAID NUMEROUS THINGS WHICH INDICATE THAT THEY DON'T TRUST THE F THE I PEOPLE OR THE WAY THAT THEY DO THEIR WORK.

PEOPLE WHO SAID THINGS THEY INDICATE THEY DON'T REALLY UNDERSTAND HOW THE FBI WORKS IN PEOPLE WHO HAVE DEMONSTRATED ONE QUALIFICATION WHICH IS SLAVISH LOYALTY TO DONALD TRUMP .

IT IS DIFFERENT WORLD FOR THE MEN AND WOMEN OF THE FBI WHO ARE WORRIED ABOUT GETTING FIRED SIMPLY FOR HAVING WORKED ON THE JANUARY 6 CASES.

ALL THESE THINGS CONSPIRE TO CREATE LOW MORALE AND A TERRIBLE DISTRACTION FROM THE IMPORTANT WORK THEY HAVE TO DO EVERY DAY.

SO HOPEFULLY THEY WILL GET THROUGH THIS TIME AND INTO ONE WITH GREATER STABILITY BUT I THINK THEY'VE GOT A LONG WAY TO GO.

>> YOU ARE REALLY LAYING OUT AN OMINOUS PICTURE.

THERE'S IMPACTS FOR EVERY SINGLE AMERICAN.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU, FIONA.

>>> TO GAZA, THE CLOCK IS TICKING DOWN TO THE END OF THE TRUCE BETWEEN ISRAEL AND HAMAS WHICH IS SET TO EXPIRE UNLESS THERE'S A NEW AGREEMENT TO EXTEND IT.

THE SIDES WERE MEANT TO BEGIN TALKS ON A PERMANENT AND TO THE WAR IN FEBRUARY.

THREE WEEKS LATER THEY HAVE NOT STARTED BUT INSTEAD ISRAEL IS PREPARING FOR A RETURN TO WAR AND ESCALATING OPERATIONS IN THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

THE IDF DEPLOYING TANKS TO THE AREA FOR THE FIRST TIME IN TWO DECADES AS JEREMY DIAMOND REPORTS.

>> AS THE MILITARY EXPANDS ITS OPERATIONS IN THE WEST BANK WE SOME OF THE DESTRUCTION THAT'S BEEN WROUGHT IN THE NORTH REFUGEE CAMP.

YOU COULD SEE AROUND ME, THERE'S THIS ENTIRE AREA THAT'S BEEN DUG UP BY THOSE BULLDOZERS AND WE ARE SEEING EVIDENCE OF POWERFUL BLASTS WHICH RIPPED OPEN THE FRONT OF THIS RESIDENTIAL BUILDING.

THE ISRAELI MILITARY BEGAN ITS EXPANDED OPERATION WITHIN THE WEST BANK OVER A MONTH AGO BUT EXPANDED IT HERE TWO WEEKS AGO.

YOU COULD SEE HERE FOR EXAMPLE THIS USED TO BE A PHARMACY.

THIS KIND OF DESTRUCTION IS HAPPENING INCREASINGLY FREQUENTLY IN THE WEST BANK REPRESENTING THE KIND OF MILITARY OPERATIONS THAT THE IDF HAS BEEN CARRYING OUT IN GAZA.

YOU ALSO DON'T HEAR ANY PEOPLE AROUND ME.

HAVEN'T SEEN MANY CIVILIANS WITHIN THE AREA BECAUSE OF THE DISPLACEMENT HAPPENING WITHIN THE REFUGEE CAMP.

OVERALL THERE'S ABOUT 40,000 FLEE THEIR HOMES.

SPOKE WITH SOME OF THOSE PEOPLE EARLIER TODAY WHO SAID THAT THEY REALLY DON'T KNOW WHEN THEY WILL BE ABLE TO RETURN HOME BECAUSE THE ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTRY SAID THAT THE MILITARY OPERATION COULD LAST FOR OVER A YEAR AND THAT UNTIL THE OPERATION IS OVER THAT THE RESIDENCE OF CAMPS LIKE THIS ONE WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO RETURN HOME.

>> RETURNED TO A HUMANITARIAN DISASTER UNFOLDING IN THE DEMOCRATIC REPUBLIC OF CONGO.

THE COUNTRY'S PRIME MINISTER SAID SOME 7000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED AND NEARLY HALF 1 MILLION PEOPLE DO NOT HAVE SHELTER.

SINCE THE REBEL GROUP M 23 PUSHED INTO THE COUNTRY LAST MONTH CAPTURING THE MAJOR CITIES, ON MONDAY THE UNITED NATIONS CHIEF ADDRESSED THE CONFLICT AT THE UN HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL.

>> WE SEE A WHIRLWIND OF VIOLENCE AND HUMAN RIGHTS ABUSES AMPLIFIED BY THE OFFENSIVE SUPPORTED BY THESE DEFENSE FORCES.

AS MORE CITIES FALL, THE RISK OF A REGIONAL WAR RISES.

IT IS TIME TO SILENCE THE GUNS, IT'S TIME FOR DIPLOMACY AND DIALOGUE.

>> THEY REJECT ALLEGATIONS WITH ARMS AND TROOPS BUT THE LATEST OFFENSIVE IS A HUGELY DESTABILIZING DEVELOPMENT IN A DECADE-LONG CONFLICT AND ONE THAT'S PROMOTING FEAR OF A WIDER REGIONAL WAR.

HERE TO TALK ABOUT WHAT IS BEHIND THE VIOLENCE, THE PRESIDENT CEO OF THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS GROUP AND JOINS ME FROM LONDON.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

BEFORE WE GET INTO M 23 AND THE GEOPOLITICS SURROUNDING ALL OF THIS, IF YOU COULD PAINT A PICTURE FOR VIEWERS AS TO THE CURRENT REALITY ON THE GROUND TO THEIR, IN THE CONGO, THE UN IS CONFIRMING CASES OF CHILDREN BEING EXECUTED OR RECRUITED TO FIGHT.

THERE'S A LOT OF CONCERN ABOUT GENERAL POPULATION IN THE CIVILIANS THERE.

450,000 PEOPLE WITHOUT SHELTER AS THEY ARE FLEEING.

TELL US, WHAT IS HAPPENING?

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

YOU HAVE PAINTED THAT PICTURE QUITE WELL.

THERE'S MASS DISPLACEMENT WITH HUMANITARIAN DIRE CLEARANCES, SEXUAL VIOLENCE, LARGELY STRUCTURAL, MANY PEOPLE FLEEING THEIR HOMES.

THERE'S A LARGE SWOOP.

HE SEEN THE MOST SEVERE CRISIS ON THE CONTINENT AFTER SUDAN SO IT'S A GRIM PICTURE WHERE BOTH THE LAW ENFORCEMENT, THE ARMY'S CAPACITY, THE CAPACITY OF REGIONAL ADMINISTRATION, TO BE ABLE TO TAKE GRIP OF THE SITUATION OR COLLIDE AT THE SAME TIME AS YOU ARE SEEING THE REGIONAL PROXY WAR IN THE EASTERN CONGO.

>> THE CONGO HAS BEEN A HOTSPOT FOR THE MILITIA FOR MANY YEARS LARGELY ATTRACTED TO THE MINERAL WEALTH OF THE COUNTRY AND NATURAL RESERVES THERE.

AND 23 IN PARTICULAR, THEY HAVE A HISTORY IN THE CONGO GOING BACK DECADES.

TELL US ABOUT THE LATEST RESURGENCE AND WHAT YOU THINK IS BEHIND IT.

>> YES, YOU ARE QUITE RIGHT, YOU COULD EVEN CALL THIS A PROFESSIONAL INSURGENT BECAUSE IT EXISTED SINCE THE 1990S.

LARGELY SEE THEM AS A GROUP, THEY FOUGHT ON DIFFERENT PERIODS THROUGHOUT THE CONGRESS CONGO'S TROUBLING HISTORY.

THEY WANT THE REFUGEES TO RETURN, A NUMBER OF THEM HAVE BEEN IN AND OUT OF THE ARMY.

THEY HAVE SOUGHT CONCESSIONS AND AMNESTY AND AS YOU'LL RECALL IN 2012 AND 2013 THERE DOWN WHERE THEY REMAINED DORMANT THEN THEY CAME BACK IN 2021 AMID THE FALLOUT OF 2021 THROUGH 2024 AND IN A SENSE WHAT TRIGGERED THE LATEST CRISIS WAS THE FALLOUT, THE RESULTS OF RIVALRY BETWEEN RWANDA AND UGANDA WITH RWANDA USING THE M 23, LARGELY AS A PROXY TO CONSOLIDATE AND EXPAND THIS WITHIN THE EASTERN CONGO.

ONE LEVEL IS AN INTERNAL DIMENSION TO THE CRISIS AND OVERALL THERE'S A LARGE EXTERNAL DIMENSION TO THE CRISIS.

THERE'S AN EXPANSIVE AGENDA.

RWANDA OFTEN INVOKES THE HORRORS OF GENOCIDE OF 1990 THROUGH 1994, CLAIMING SOME OF THE FORCES THAT ARE TRYING TO BEAT BACK THE REMNANTS OF THE HOOTIE OF IT SORT OF RUN ITS COURSE BECAUSE THERE'S THE EXPANSIONIST TERRITORIAL GAME THAT RWANDA SEEK'S AT THE SAME TIME.

>> PRESIDENT WHO'S BEEN IN OFFICE SINCE 2000, PRIOR TO THAT HE WAS A COMMANDER OF THE REBEL ARMED FORCES AND RECEIVED A LOT OF PRAISE FOR THE HANDLING IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE GENOCIDE THAT YOU NOTED.

IT'S INTERESTING AND BAFFLING HOW HE IS RESPONDING TO THIS CURRENT CRISIS WITH M 23.

HEARD FROM THE UN AND U.S. THAT RWANDA AND AS YOU LAID OUT, THEY ARE BEHIND THIS CURRENT INSURGENCY AND RWANDA DENIES THIS.

OUR OWN REPORTER SPOKE WITH THE PRESIDENT AND ASKED HIM DIRECTLY IF HER WANDA HAD ANY TROOPS IN THE EASTERN DRC AND HERE IS HOW HE ANSWERED.

>> I DO NOT KNOW .

>> YOU ARE THE COMMANDER-IN- >> YES.

THERE'S MANY THINGS I DON'T KNOW BUT IF YOU WANT TO ASK ME, IT'S THEIR PROBLEM.

THE CONCERN IS RWANDA.

RWANDA WILL DO ANYTHING TO PROTECT ITSELF I WOULD SAY 100%.

>> DOES THIS WAR RISK WAR WITHIN THE REGION?

>> THIS IS A SEASONED POLITICIAN HERE AND MILITARY EXPERT.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO HIS ANSWERS THERE?

SAYING BASICALLY I DON'T KNOW.

>> I THINK IT'S ALSO A SIGN THAT HE KNOWS HE CAN'T HIDE BEHIND CERTAIN FACTS.

THERE'S A LOT OF EVIDENCE BEING GATHERED, MY COLLEAGUES FOR EXAMPLE, THE UNITED NATIONS, EXPERTS SHOWING CLEAR EVIDENCE THAT THERE'S MATERIAL SUPPORT, LOGISTICAL SUPPORT WITH WEAPONRY INCREASING IN DEPLOYMENT AS FAR AS THE FACT THAT TODAY THE DEFENSE ARMY OUTNUMBERS THE THERE ARE MANY FIGHTING IN THIS CONFLICT AS WELL.

HE'S OFTEN TRIED TO DENY THE ROLE THAT THEY'VE PLAYED.

BADGERING THIS AWAY SAYING IT'S LARGELY A CONGOLESE AFFAIR AND SAYING THIS HAS TO BE SETTLED BY CONGOLESE BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IN THAT INTERVIEW YOU JUST AIRED, HE ALSO STATED THAT RWANDA WILL ALWAYS SEEK TO DEFEND ITS NATIONAL INTEREST WHEN IT NEEDS TO SO THE QUESTION TODAY IS, WHAT IS THIS NATIONAL INTEREST?

ONE WORD I SAY OFTEN, THEY JUSTIFY THEIR FOOTHOLD IN THE CONGO AS A MASS AND ALL SECURITY TIE.

IT'S RUN ITS COURSE BECAUSE IT'S CLEAR FROM ALL THE EVIDENCE THIS IS NOT JUST A SHOW OF SELF-DEFENSE BUT ABOUT HAVING A CLEAR CLAIM AND ANOTHER AGENDA, ECONOMIC AGENDA WANTING TO STAKE THEIR CLAIM WITHIN THE REGION AND HAVING THE UPPER HAND WITHIN THE CONGO.

THERE'S THEIR OWN SET OF DEMANDS AND OBJECTIVES SOME GOING AS FAR AS TO SAY THERE'S A REGIME CHANGE.

AGENDA DRIVING SOME OF THIS LEVEL.

STAKING OUR CLAIM WITHIN THE COUNTRY.

IT'S REMINISCENT OF THE WARS WE SAW WITHIN THE LATE 1990S.

>> GOING BACK TO 2012 THERE WAS INTERNATIONAL PRESSURE.

WE FINALLY SAW THEM 23 LAY DOWN ITS ARMS AND BACK DOWN AFTER CAPTURING.

IF WE DON'T SEE THEM STEP UP TO THE PLATE, WHO HAS THE LEVERAGE OVER M 23?

>> YOU ARE RIGHT.

GOING BACK TO 2012 OR 2013, THERE WAS A COHERENT ACTION COMING THROUGH FROM THE DIFFERENT LEVELS.

TODAY YOU'VE GOT A DIVIDED CONTINENT.

LARGELY YOU ARE SEEING A TUSSLE BETWEEN EASTERN AFRICAN COUNTRIES AND SOUTHERN AFRICAN COUNTRIES AND FOR THE FIRST TIME, HE PLAYED THAT VIDEO, THE REMARKS OF THE SECRETARY- GENERAL AT THE BEGINNING AND I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO REALIZE WITHIN THE SECURITY COUNCIL, THEY TAKE THE RESOLUTION AND MADE A DISTINCT BREAK FROM THE PAST.

THEY'VE OFTEN MANAGED THE DRC.

IT WENT FURTHER THAN THE UNION AND THE TWO REACHES WITHIN THE CRISIS AND ALSO THE FIRST TIME THAT IT CALLED OUT RWANDA.

SOMETHING THAT NEVER HAPPENED BEFORE AND ALSO THREATENS SANCTIONS ALONGSIDE THE SANCTIONS YOU SEE WITHIN THE UNITED STATES SO THERE IS NOW, DIPLOMACY AND DESPITE THIS TUSSLE BETWEEN THESE TWO REGIONS, THE SECURITY COUNCIL TO MAKE THIS CALL, LARGELY DISTINCT WITH THE UNITED KINGDOM MORNING THAT THEY'VE GOT SANCTIONS COMING DOWN THE PIPELINE.

WHETHER THIS WILL CHANGE THESE CALCULATIONS OF HER WANDA, THE PRESIDENT'S RESPONSE WAS WE HAVE TAKEN NOTE OF THAT.

THE UNPRECEDENTED INTIMIDATION OF AFRICAN VOICES, THAT WAS ALSO A CURIOUS RESPONSE.

LET'S SEE IF THIS WILL ALTER THOSE CALCULATIONS.

>> THE SPOKESMAN AS OF NOW AND IN THE MEANTIME, THOUSANDS HAVE DIED , INNOCENT CIVILIANS HAVE BEEN FLEEING THEIR HOME AND BEING DISPLACED AND YOU MENTIONED SEXUAL VIOLENCE AS WELL.

THERE'S BEEN A SIGNIFICANT SPIKE.

SOME STATISTICS, THEY RECORDED 572 CASES INCLUDING 100 CASES INCLUDING 170 CHILDREN.

WHAT PROTECTION DO WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN PARTICULAR HAVE NOW?

>> THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

ONE OF THE KEY ISSUES WE'VE SEEN IS THAT WE HAVE TO SEE SOME KIND OF HUMANITARIAN BRIDGE TO KEEP ACCESS OPEN.

THEY ARE SAYING THEY WILL TRY TO GUARANTY THAT BUT IT'S HARD TO SEE HOW THIS WOULD HAPPEN WHEN LARGELY WE HAVE SEEN RWANDA AND AM 23 TAKE CONTROL OF THE LOCAL ADMINISTRATION BUT CAN THEY GUARANTEE THAT KIND OF PROTECTION?

I THINK IT WILL BE A DIFFICULT UPHEAVAL FOR THE PEOPLE OF EASTERN CONGO PARTICULARLY AND HE SAID AT THE BEGINNING, TALKING ABOUT THE DISPLACEMENT THERE.

THERE ARE AT LEAST 7.2 MILLION ACCORDING TO HER OWN THIS ACCORDING TO OUR OWN STATISTICS.

THE CHILDREN, A NUMBER OF THEM HAVE BEEN RECRUITED.

IT'S A HORRIFIC STORY THAT'S COME OUT, ABOUT THESE WOMEN WHO WERE BURNT IN THE PRISON.

IT'S QUITE A SHOCKING STATE OF AFFAIRS WITHIN THE REGION.

>> THIS IS A REMINDER, THESE ARE THE OFFICIAL NUMBERS WHICH HAVE BEEN REPORTED.

I WOULD IMAGINE THE ACTUAL NUMBERS ARE GREATER AND THE STORIES MORE HORRIFYING.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> TO THE WAR IN UKRAINE WHICH MARKED ITS THIRD ANNIVERSARY.

AS AMERICAN SUPPORT APPEARS TO BE UNCERTAIN THE FRENCH PRESIDENT MET WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP AND WARNED AGAINST ANY SURRENDER OF UKRAINE.

TO TALK ABOUT THE IMPACT OF THE U.S.

ADMINISTRATIONS MOVES TO NEGOTIATE WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN, WALTER ISAACSON SAT DOWN WITH BILL BROWNER.

THE SHOW.

>> IT'S GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> THIS WEEK AT THE THIRD ANNIVERSARY OF THE INVASION, THINGS HAVE CHANGED NOT ONLY ON THE BATTLEFIELD BUT ON THE POLITICAL FIELD WITH DONALD TRUMP.

UNWILLING TO CONTINUE SUPPORT IT SEEMS, FOR UKRAINE WITH THE SUMMIT OF THE EUROPEAN LEADERS THIS WEEK.

DO YOU MAKE OF THE SITUATION NOW?

>> ESSENTIALLY IT'S GOTTEN WORSE THAN BEING UNWILLING TO SUPPORT UKRAINE.

BASED ON STATEMENTS DONALD TRUMP HAS MADE IT LOOKS LIKE HE'S THROWN HIS LOT IN WITH PUTIN.

WHAT I MEAN BY THIS, DONALD TRUMP HAS BLAMED UKRAINE FOR STARTING THE WAR WHICH OF COURSE, ANYONE WHO HAS TWO EYES KNOWS THAT'S NOT TRUE.

HE'S CALLED ZELENSKY A DICTATOR AND ALL OF HIS PEOPLE ON THE TALK SHOWS ARE BASICALLY SAYING THAT RUSSIA WAS NOT THE AGGRESSOR SO I THINK WHAT WE'VE GOT HAPPENING IS FAR WORSE THAN WASHING HIS HANDS OF UKRAINE, HE'S THROWN HIS LOT IN WITH PUTIN WHICH HAS UNBELIEVABLY NEGATIVE CONSEQUENCES NOT ONLY FOR UKRAINE BUT FOR A LOT OF THE ISSUES AROUND THE WORLD.

>> DIDN'T WE SEE THIS COMING, HE HAD AN AFFINITY WORKING WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN OR WHO KNOWS WHAT IT IS, THAT THIS WOULD COME TO PASS?

>> WE ALL SAW THIS .

OF COURSE, THERE WAS THE INVESTIGATION INTO RUSSIAN COLLUSION AND ALL OF THIS, THE HELSINKI SUMMIT WHERE HE CITED WITH PUTIN OVER THE U.S. INTELLIGENCE SERVICE AND OFFERED TO HAND ME OVER TO PUTIN WHEN PUTIN ASKED HIM.

WE'VE SEEN THIS WITHIN MANY INTERVIEWS.

I THINK EVERYONE WAS HOPING AND PRAYING THAT THIS WOULD NOT WHATEVER HIS AFFINITY WAS, WOULD NOT CHANGE U.S. POLICY AND FOR THE MOST PART DURING HIS FIRST TERM AS PRESIDENT IT DIDN'T.

HE WAS SURROUNDED BY A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO KEPT THE GUARDRAILS IN.

THIS TIME ROUND, HE'S COME OUT OF THE GATES SWINGING ON BEHALF OF VLADIMIR PUTIN AND AGAINST UKRAINE AND AGAINST A LOT OF THE REST OF THE WORLD AND PERHAPS , AGAINST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WHEN IT COMES TO THIS ISSUE.

>> A LOT OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS HAVE GONE TO SAUDI ARABIA TRYING TO HAVE DIRECT NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE RUSSIANS AND IT SEEMS PRESIDENT TRUMP WANTS TO HAVE DIRECT NEGOTIATIONS WITH PUTIN LEAVING OUT BOTH THE UKRAINIANS AND THE EUROPEANS.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> I THINK THAT YOU CAN'T HAVE A NEGOTIATION BETWEEN TWO WARRING PARTIES AND EXCLUDES ONE OF THE WARRING PARTIES.

>> THAT MAY HAPPEN THOUGH SO THAT MAY BE WHAT HAPPENS.

NEGOTIATION.

THE PURPOSE OF THESE MEETINGS IN SAUDI ARABIA IS NOT TO RESOLVE THE WAR, THE PURPOSE IS FOR TRUMP AND PUTIN TO RESET RELATIONS BETWEEN THEMSELVES.

THERE'S BEEN ALL THE TALK ABOUT LIFTING SANCTIONS, BRINGING RUSSIA INTO THE G-7, FOR AMERICAN BUSINESSES TO SHOW UP IN RUSSIA.

IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE A PIECE NEGOTIATION BUT SOME TYPE OF RESET RELATIONS BETWEEN RUSSIA AND THE UNITED STATES.

>> UKRAINE IN MY OPINION DOESN'T HAVE MUCH OF A CHOICE.

THEY SHOULD FIGHT, FIGHT THE RUSSIANS TO THE EXTENT THEY ARE CUTTING OFF MILITARY AID, UKRAINE SHOULD LOOK TO THE EUROPEANS TO INCREASE MILITARY AID AND IF THE EUROPEANS DON'T HAVE ENOUGH MONEY WITHIN THEIR OWN RESOURCES, I SHOULD POINT OUT THE EUROPEANS HAVE PRODUCED BEFORE, FOR THEM TO DOUBLE DOWN WHITE BE DIFFICULT IF THEY DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO CONTINUE OR TO DOUBLE DOWN.

THE EUROPEANS SHOULD DRAW ON THE $300 BILLION OF RUSSIAN MONEY WHICH HAS BEEN FROZEN MOSTLY IN EUROPE AND USE THIS MONEY TO SUPPORT THE UKRAINIANS.

IN THOSE CIRCUMSTANCES, TRUMP DOESN'T REALLY HAVE THE LEVERAGE TO CHANGE THE OUTCOME OF THE WAR.

HE DOES NOT HAVE THE LEVERAGE TO FORCE UKRAINE INTO A SURRENDER WHICH IS EFFECTIVELY WHAT HE'S ATTEMPTING TO DO NOW.

>> YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE $300 BILLION IN FROZEN ASSETS FOR THREE YEARS.

YOU SAID THAT IT SHOULD BE CONFISCATED OR USED TO HELP UKRAINE.

IT SEEMS OBVIOUS TO ME THAT TRUMP WON'T GO ALONG WITH THAT.

TO WHAT EXTENT COULD THE DO THIS ON THEIR OWN AND WHY HAVEN'T THEY DONE IT?

>> THEY COULD ABSOLUTELY DO THIS ON THEIR OWN .

ONLY 13 BILLION IS THE UNITED STATES SO 287 BILLION IS IN EUROPE SO THEY COULD TAKE THAT MONEY.

HE SHOULD BE PAYING FOR THE UKRAINIANS, NOT ANYONE ELSE.

WHY HAVEN'T THEY DONE THIS?

THERE HASN'T BEEN THE POLITICAL WILL TO DO THIS UP UNTIL NOW.

THE EUROPEANS ARE IN A DIFFERENT WORLD THAT THEY WERE LIVING IN FROM TWO WEEKS AGO.

THEY'VE BEEN TOLD IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS BY THE PRESIDENT AND THE VICE PRESIDENT, J.D.

VANCE THAT THEY ARE ON THEIR OWN.

THE EUROPEANS ARE WAKING UP TO A NEW REALITY AND AS THEY WAKE UP TO THE NEW REALITY I BELIEVE THERE'S QUITE A BIT OF POLITICAL WILL TO SUPPORT UKRAINE AND I THINK THERE'S QUITE A BIT OF POLITICAL WILL TO HAVE PUTIN PAY FOR THIS BEFORE THEY TAXED THE TAXPAYERS THE EXTRA MONEY.

>> ON THE FROZEN ASSETS, DO YOU THINK THEY SHOULD SEES, HAVE YOU TALKED TO THE EUROPEAN LEADERS OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS ABOUT IT?

>> I WAS AT THE MUNICH SECURITY AGO .

I MET WITH SEVEN EUROPEAN FOREIGN MINISTERS FROM BOTH BIG AND SMALL COUNTRIES.

THIS WAS AT THE MOMENT WHEN J.D.

VANCE WAS GIVING HIS FAMOUS SPEECH, CRITICIZING OR ATTACKING EUROPE.

NOT ATTACKING RUSSIA.

EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THESE FOREIGN MINISTERS I MET WITH THOUGHT THIS WAS A NO-BRAINER.

OF COURSE THE MONEY SHOULD BE TAKEN.

THIS WAS ONE WEEK BEFORE THE GERMANS HAD THEIR ELECTIONS.

I DON'T THINK ANY BIG DECISION LIKE THAT COULD BE TAKEN WITHOUT A GERMAN CHANCELLOR SO WE'VE GOT A GERMAN CHANCELLOR, I THINK THEY WILL PROBABLY MOVE FORWARD QUICKLY WITHIN THAT DIRECTION.

>> AS YOU LOOK AT THE GERMAN ELECTIONS AND THE NEW CHANCELLOR, IN WHICH BOTH THE FAR RIGHT.

YOU MAY HAVE A COALITION OF A CONSERVATIVE GOVERNMENT THERE, HOW DOES THIS AFFECT UKRAINE AND THE RELATIONSHIPS WITH RUSSIA?

>> IN MY OPINION, THE PREVIOUS CHANCELLOR WAS HALF IN AND HALF OUT.

ONE STEP FORWARD, ONE STEP BACK WHEN IT CAME TO UKRAINE.

DIDN'T HAVE THE APPETITE.

THE NEW GERMAN CHANCELLOR HAS THE APPETITE AND HIS WORDS ARE CLEAR, VERY STRONG.

SUPPORTIVE OF UKRAINE.

IN GERMAN POLITICS, IT'S NOT LIKE AMERICAN POLITICS WHERE IN ORDER FOR HIM TO FORM THE GOVERNMENT HE HAS TO DO SO WITH COALITION WITH OTHER PARTIES INCLUDING THE PARTY FROM THE PREVIOUS CHANCELLOR, SCHOLZ, AND THE SOCIAL DEMOCRATS.

SOME COMPROMISES WILL HAVE TO BE MADE AND I'M HOPING AND I THINK UKRAINIANS ARE HOPING AND PREDICTING THAT THERE WILL BE A MORE ROBUST POLICY IN FAVOR OF UKRAINE COMING FROM GERMANY WITH A NEW CHANCELLOR.

>> THE NEW INCOMING CHANCELLOR HAS TALKED ABOUT HAVING TO TAKE INDEPENDENCE FROM THE UNITED STATES.

HE, IN SOME WAYS, SEEMED TO BE GENERALLY SUPPORTIVE OF CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS IN THE UNITED STATES BUT IS NOW REACTING AGAINST SOME OF WHAT TRUMP HAS SAID.

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE U.S. WILL BE AND WITH PUTIN WILL BE?

>> I THINK THAT HIS RELATIONSHIPS WITH PUTIN WILL BE ADVERSARIAL, AS THEY SHOULD BE.

PUTIN IS AN ADVERSARY TO EUROPE AND I THINK HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH THE UNITED STATES WILL BE THE BEST HE COULD MAKE OF IT BUT UNDERSTANDING THE NEW REALITY.

I SHOULD POINT OUT, THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN REPUBLICANS AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

REPUBLICANS AND CONGRESS ARE VERY TRANSATLANTIC.

VERY MUCH SUPPORTING OF UKRAINE, AGAINST PUTIN.

WITH THE EXCEPTION OF A FEW THAT I KNOW IN CONGRESS WHO ARE FIRMLY ON THE SIDE OF UKRAINE.

IT'S THE NEW MAGA WING OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

THEY HAVE THIS STRANGE AND DIFFERENT VIEW WHICH I SHOULD POINT OUT IS DIFFERENT THAN THE AVERAGE AMERICAN.

AMERICANS WERE IN UKRAINE AS THEY THINK THAT HE'S A CRIMINAL AND A DICTATOR.

I THINK TRUMP IS TRYING TO CHANGE THE PUBLIC OPINION OF AMERICA AND CHANGING THE OPINION OF MEMBERS OF CONGRESS BUT I THINK THEY WILL DO THE BEST THEY CAN TO HOLD IT ALL TOGETHER BUT I THINK THE MESSAGE IS CLEAR, J.D.

VANCE WAS VERY CLEAR , TRUMP HAS BEEN CLEAR THAT HE'S NOT A BIG FAN OF NATO.

HE DOESN'T BELIEVE THAT COUNTRY SHOULD BE DEFENDING WITH WHICH IS WHAT THEY'RE ALL ABOUT IF THEY AREN'T PAYING THEIR WAY.

IS NOT GOING TO BE A SCENARIO WHERE EUROPE HAS TO GO ON ITS OWN AS FAR AS DEFENDING ITSELF.

I THINK THAT'S WHEN THE NEW CHANCELLOR WAS SAYING THIS IN HIS SPEECH.

IT'S PROBABLY IMPORTANT TO DO THIS UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

I VERY MUCH DISAGREE WITH TRUMP BUT THE ONE PLACE I AGREE IS THAT EUROPE HAS BEEN LIVING IN THIS COZY COCOON, BEING PROTECTED BY AMERICA.

IT'S TIME FOR THEM TO PAY FOR THEIR OWN DEFENSE.

THEY'RE GOING TO HAVE TO DO THAT.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP AND SOME OF THE ADMINISTRATION HAVE CALLED FOR THE USE OF UKRAINE'S RARE EARTH MINERALS AND MINERAL RIGHTS TO FUND OR PAY BACK TO THE UNITED STATES.

I THINK THE TREASURY SECRETARY WALKED IT BACK A LITTLE IN THE FINANCIAL TIMES OP-ED IN WHICH TO TALKED ABOUT CREATING A FUND FOCUSED ON LONG-TERM RECONSTRUCTION BUT WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT WHOLE IDEA?

>> IT'S OUTRAGEOUS.

SO THE UNITED STATES, IN THE FORM OF A GRANT, A GIFT, HAS GIVEN UKRAINE OVER A PERIOD OF TIME, $100 BILLION IN MILITARY AID.

THE U.S. SECRETARY OF TREASURY SAYS THAT WASN'T A GRANT, THAT WAS ALONE AND WE WOULD LIKE THIS BACK BUT WE DON'T WANT $100 BILLION BACK WE WANT $500 BILLION BACK AND IN ORDER TO DO THAT, WE REQUIRE TO TO SIGN OVER YOUR MINERAL WELLS, 50% OF THIS INTO PERPETUITY.

IT'S AN INDECENT PROPOSAL OF THE MOST MAXIMUM SCALE FOR HIM TO DO THAT ON ANY LEVEL.

AND ON TOP OF ALL THIS, IN EXCHANGE FOR NOTHING SO THE UNITED STATES WASN'T GOING TO SAY IN EXCHANGE FOR THAT WE WILL GUARANTEE YOUR SECURITY INTO PERPETUITY, THIS IS TO PAY BACK THE $100 BILLION THAT WAS SPENT IN THE FORM OF A $500 BILLION PAYMENT.

ANYONE WHO LOOKS AT THIS FOR TWO SECONDS UNDERSTANDS THAT THIS IS A CRAZY INSANE INSULT.

THAT OP-ED.

HE PUTS A FEW FANCY WORDS ON THIS INDECENT PROPOSAL.

ZELENSKY WAS RIGHT TO REJECT IT AND I HOPE YOU NEVER FEELS PRESSURE TO ACCEPT BECAUSE THIS DOES NOTHING TOWARD FIXING THE PROBLEM WHICH IS PUTIN'S INVASION OF UKRAINE.

>> HOW COULD THIS BE RESOLVED, NATO, WITH THE U.S. NOT WILLING, IT SEEMS TO SUPPORT UKRAINE AND ZELENSKY?

COULD THERE BE A CEASE-FIRE IN PLACE THAT WOULD HOLD OR IS THERE NO SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM?

>> THE OTHER PROBLEM NO ONE SEEMS TO SPEND TIME ON IS THAT PUTIN DOESN'T REALLY WANT TO RESOLVE IT.

HE WANTS SANCTIONS LIFTED WITH BETTER RELATIONS WITH AMERICA AND OTHER COUNTRIES HE WANTS TO GO BACK TO THE MAINSTREAM.

HE DOESN'T WANT JUSTICE TO BE DONE FOR WHAT HE HAS DONE BEFORE AND HE DOESN'T WANT TO STOP FIGHTING AND FOR A SIMPLE REASON HE DOESN'T WANT TO STOP FIGHTING, HE'S NOW A WAR FOR HIM TO STOP HALFWAY, IT DOESN'T ACCOMPLISH ANY OBJECTIVES.

THE REASON HE'S DOING THIS WAR, IN MY OPINION, IT'S GOT NOTHING TO DO WITH NATO OR TERRITORY.

IT HAS TO DO WITH A MAN WHOSE BEEN AROUND TOO LONG IS DESPERATE TO REMAIN IN POWER BECAUSE HE UNDERSTANDS IF HE LOSES POWER HE GOES TO JAIL, LOSES ALL OF HIS MONEY, AND DYING.

SO YOU'VE GOT THIS DICTATOR WHO IS DESPERATE TO REMAIN ALIVE.

HE WILL THROW HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF HIS OWN SOLDIERS TO THEIR DEATHS, SPENDING HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WITH NO INTENTION OF BACKING DOWN.

THE ONLY THING THAT COULD HAPPEN IS A SHORT PAUSE FOR HIM TO REARM AND CARRY ON WITH HIS MISSION.

>> I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT SOLUTION WOULD YOU SUGGEST FOR UKRAINE?

>> MY SOLUTION IS VERY SIMPLE, GIVE THE UKRAINIANS ALL OF THE TOOLS THEY NEED .

>> THEY ESTABLISH THAT'S NOT >> IT COULD ABSOLUTELY HAPPEN WITH THE EUROPEANS.

$300 BILLION OF MONEY TO SPEND ON WEAPONS.

LET THE UKRAINIANS FIGHT BACK THE RUSSIANS TO THE POINT WHERE THEY HAVE THEIR PUTIN THEIR BOOT ON PUTIN'S THROAT.

THEN THEY COULD NEGOTIATE A CEASE-FIRE.

HE WILL NEVER NEGOTIATE FROM A POSITION OF STRENGTH BUT A POSITION OF WEAKNESS.

>> AS EVE SAID , WITH TALKS THAT HE WANTS TO HAVE SANCTIONS LIFTED, THAT'S HIS LONG-TERM GOAL.

THE SECRETARY OF STATE GAVE A TALK ABOUT HOW YOU COULD LIFT SANCTIONS AND BRING RUSSIA INTO THE WORLD COMMUNITY.

IS THAT A FANTASY OR COULD THIS BE A NEW OPENING FOR RUSSIA?

>> IT'S OUTRAGEOUS IF THEY DO THIS.

PUTIN HAS LAUNCHED A WAR OF AGGRESSION AND HAS TAKEN A LARGE PART OF A NEIGHBORING COUNTRY THAT DID NOTHING TO PROVOKE THIS CONQUEST.

THEN TO LIFT SANCTIONS AND BRING THEM INTO THE WORLD, THAT WOULD BRING A TERRIBLE MESSAGE.

HE COULD DO THE SAME THING IN TAIWAN AND EVERY DICTATOR AROUND THE WORLD, THIS IS NOT THE MESSAGE WE WOULD WANT TO SEND ANYONE.

IT CERTAINLY WOULD BE THE BIGGEST SLAP IN THE FACE FOR THE UKRAINIANS IF WE WERE TO DO THAT.

>> IF THE SANCTIONS LIFTING , AMERICAN COMPANIES AND BUSINESSES COULD DO BUSINESS IN RUSSIA.

YOU ARE ONE OF THE BIGGEST INVESTORS OF NOT THE BIGGEST INVESTOR IN RUSSIA BACK IN THE DAY.

WHAT ADVICE WOULD YOU GIVE TO AMERICAN CORPORATIONS AND PEOPLE THINKING OF DOING BUSINESS IN RUSSIA?

>> STAYAWAY.

I WAS THE LARGEST FOREIGN INVESTOR IN THEIR COUNTRY .

THEY EXPELLED ME FROM THE COUNTRY AND RAIDED MY OFFICE, SEIZING OUR DOCUMENTS, MY LAWYER DISCOVERED A FRAUD CONNECTED WITH THE SEIZURE OF HE EXPOSED IT AND HE WAS ARRESTED.

ARRESTED BY THE SAME PEOPLE WHO DID THE CRIME, HE WAS TORTURED FOR 358 DAYS AND HE WAS MURDERED.

NOVEMBER 16, 2009.

MY MESSAGE TO AMERICAN BUSINESSMEN, YOU NOT ONLY RISK YOUR MONEY, YOU RISK YOUR LIFE.

IF THAT'S WHAT THEY DID TO THE LARGEST FOREIGN INVESTOR IN THE COUNTRY THEY WILL DO THIS TO YOU TOO.

>> WE TALKED TWO YEARS AGO ON THE FIRST ANNIVERSARY OF THIS LATEST INVASION BY RUSSIA INTO UKRAINE.

YOU SAID YOU THOUGHT PUTIN'S IDEA, HIS PLAN WAS HE COULD WAIT OUT THE U.S.

WAIT US OUT UNTIL THE U.S. GOT TIRED OF IT ALL , OF SUPPORTING UKRAINE.

WELL, THAT SEEMS TO BE A BIT OF WHAT'S HAPPENED.

AT LEAST THE U.S. PRESIDENT AND HIS ADMINISTRATION FEEL THAT.

SHOULD WE HAVE TRIED TO SETTLE YEAR AGO?

>> I'VE GOT A LOT OF CRITICISM FOR HOW THIS WAS HANDLED BY THE U.S. GOVERNMENT BEFORE TRUMP .

BIDEN WAS RUNNING A WAR WHERE HE WAS GIVING UKRAINIANS ENOUGH EQUIPMENT SO THAT THEY DIDN'T LOSE BUT WAS CONSCIOUS AND EXPLICIT AND NOT GIVING THE EQUIPMENT THEY NEEDED TO WIN.

HAD HE DONE SO, WE COULD BE IN A DIFFERENT PLACE RIGHT NOW.

>> BILL BROWNER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU.

>> FINALLY, REMEMBERING A HERO.

FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT CLINT HILL DIED ON FRIDAY AT THE AGE OF 93.

HE HEROICALLY JUMPED ON THE BACK OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY'S LIMOUSINE AFTER THE PRESIDENT WAS SHOT AND SHIELDED THE FIRST LADY FROM GUNFIRE ON THAT FATEFUL DAY IN 1963.

IN 2013 JAKE TAPPER SPOKE WITH HIM ABOUT THE DAY AND THE GUILT THAT NEVER LEFT HIM.

>> WE HAD A RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT THE PRESIDENT AND THAT DAY WE FAILED.

THERE'S NO QUESTION.

HE WAS DEAD.

I FELT A SENSE OF GUILT.

OF ALL THE AGENTS WORKING THAT DAY I WAS THE ONLY ONE WHO HAD THE CHANCE TO DO ANYTHING.

>> THE SECRET SERVICE SAID THAT HILL'S CAREER EXEMPLIFIED THE HIGHEST IDEALS OF PUBLIC SERVICE.

HIS BRAVERY WILL NOT BE FORGOTTEN.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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