>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

IT'S THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER'S TURN IN THE OVAL OFFICE, TRYING TO SHORE UP HIS COUNTRY'S CELEBRATED SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP AND CONVINCE PRESIDENT TRUMP NOT TO GIVE UP ON UKRAINE.

THE FORMER BRITISH AMBASSADOR TO WASHINGTON, SIR PETER WESTMACOTT JOINS US.

>>> THEN, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY IS HEADED TO THE WHITE HOUSE TO MAKE HIS CASE.

HIS FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER OLEKSII REZNIKOV JOINS US.

>>> AND AUTHOR DAVID KESSLER TELLS MICHEL MARTIN WHY HE'S IED THE WORLD IS BECOMING GRIEF ILL LITERAL.

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>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

SIR KEIR STARMER GOES TO WASHINGTON.

THE BRITISH PRIME MINISTER MEETS THE AMERICAN PRESIDENT TO TRY HIS HAND AT KEEPING TRUMP ENGAGED IN THE TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE.

AND CRUCIALLY, TO MAKE SURE UKRAINE HAS A WINNING HANDED IN ANY NEGOTIATIONS TO END PUTIN'S WAR.

SO, THE STAKES ARE SKY HIGH, WITH EUROPEAN SECURITY AND INDEED PROSPERITY IN THE BALANCE.

STARMER HAS COME BEARING THE GIFT OF INCREASED DEFENSE SPENDING TO TRY TO TRADE FOR AN AMERICAN SECURITY GUARANTEE FOR UKRAINE.

AND THE EUROPEANS ARE WILLING TO PUT BOOTS ON THE GROUND IN ANY CEASE-FIRE.

IT WILL BE A CHALLENGE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS ALREADY WAVED OFF A U.S. SECURITY GUARANTEE, SAYING WE'RE GOING TO HAVE EUROPE DO THAT.

AND THE KREMLIN INSISTS THAT ALL REGIONS IT CURRENTLY OCCUPIES AND HAS ANNEXED ARE NONNEGOTIABLE.

AS FOR FEARS OF A TRANSATLANTIC TRADE WAR, HERE'S WHAT TRUMP SAID ABOUT EUROPE AT THIS WEEK'S CABINET MEETING.

>> WE HAVE MADE A DECISION, WE'LL BE ANNOUNCING IT VERY SOON, AND IT WILL BE 25% GENERALLY SPEAKING, AND THAT WILL BE ON CARS AND ALL OTHER THINGS, AND EUROPEAN UNION IS A DIFFERENT CASE THAN CANADA, DIFFERENT KIND OF CASE.

THEY'VE REALLY TAKEN ADVANTAGE OF US IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

THEY DON'T ACCEPT OUR CARS.

THEY DON'T ACCEPT, ESSENTIALLY, OUR FARM PRODUCTS.

THEY USE ALL SORTS OF REASONS WHY NOT.

>> AS UK AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED STATES DURING THE OBAMA PRESIDENCY, SIR PETER WESTMACOTT HELPED STEWARD THE SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP.

A UNIQUE ALLIANCE THAT DATES BACK TO WORLD WAR II.

AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW TO MAKE SENSE OF WHERE ALL OF THIS MIGHT BE HEADED.

SO, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> SO, WHAT WE KNOW, AS I SAID, IS KEIR STARMER, THE PRIME MINISTER, HAS GONE BEARING GIFTS.

ONE IS AN INCREASE IN DEFENSE SPENDING, WHICH WE'LL GET TO.

THE OTHER IS A LETTER, HE HANDED PRESIDENT TRUMP A LETTER FROM KING CHARLES.

IN WHICH THE KING INVIMENTS PRESIDENT TRUMP TO WHAT WOULD AMOUNT TO HIS SECOND STATE VISIT TO THE UK, THE FIRST ONE DURING HIS FIRST TERM WITH HIS MOTHER, THE QUEEN.

>> YES.

>> WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> WELL, THAT IS BREAKING NEWS.

WE'VE KNOWN FOR A VERY LONG TIME THAT AMONG THE ELEMENTS THAT ARE PART OF DONALD TRUMP'S POSITIVE ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE UNITED KINGDOM, HIS AFFECTION FOR THE ROYAL FAMILY, HIS SCOTTISH MOTHER'S ROOTS, HIS GOLF COURSES, AND SO ON THE..

THE FACT THAT HE BRINGS A PERSONAL LETTER FROM THE KING IS A GESTURE BOUND TO BRING A SMILE TO HIS FACE.

IF THE CONTENTS ARE IT ARE, WOULD YOU COME BACK TO THE UNITED KINGDOM FOR A STATE VISIT, I'M SURE FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP THAT WILL BE A VERY BIG PLUS.

DOES IT MAKE IT EASIER FOR KEIR STARMER TO MAKE PROGRESS ON SOME OF THE SUBSTANTIVE ISSUES THAT ARE ON THE AGENDA FOR HIS MEETING WITH THE PRESIDENT TODAY?

THAT'S ANOTHER QUESTION.

YOU BUT IT WILL CERTAINLY HELP THE ATMOSPHERICS.

>> TRUMP IS VERY TRANSACTIONAL.

I MEAN, HERE IS A NICE TRANSACTION.

THE KING OF ENGLAND OFFERS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES ANOTHER STATE VISIT.

AND HE SEEMS ALREADY, PRESIDENT TRUMP, TO BE KIND OF DISTINGUISHING HIS -- HIS ATTITUDE TOWARDS BRITAIN FROM HIS ATTITUDE TOWARDS THE REST OF THE EU, SPECIFICALLY THE EU, WHICH BRITAIN IS NO LONGER PART OF.

COULD IT BE ENOUGH, OR SHOULD BRITAIN ALSO BE WORRIED, WELL, A, ABOUT THE ALLIANCE, B, ABOUT AMERICA'S SECURITY, YOU KNOW, PROTECTION, AND C, ABOUT TARIFFS AND A TRADE WAR?

>> YES, THERE'S A LOT TO BE WORRIED ABOUT.

MUCH OF THE FOCUS TODAY IN THE UK MEDIA AND SO ON HAS BEEN ON WHAT KIND OF A PACKAGE WOULD YOU PUT TOGETHER TO KEEP THE PEACE?

WILL THERE BE TROOPS ON THE GROUND, WILL THE CREASE IN SPENDING MAKE THE UK A MORE MILITARILY CAPABLE COUNTRY?

AND SO ON.

I MEAN, THAT'S FINE, UP TO A POINT.

AND I THINK IT WILL ENCOURAGE THE AMERICANS TO FEEL THAT THEY SHOULDN'T JUST WALK AWAY AND LEAVE IT ENTIRELY TO THE EUROPEANS, WHICH IS WHAT DONALD TRUMP HAS SAID WHAT HE WANTS TO DO.

BUT YOU CAN'T KEEP A PEACE UNTIL THERE IS A NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT.

AND WHAT'S WORRYING THE UK GOVERNMENT IS THAT UNTIL NOW, THAT NEGOTIATION IS BEING CONDUCTED BY TRUMP WITH PUTIN.

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE UNITED KINGDOM, AND FURTHER AFIELD, THINK THAT HE'S GIVEN HIM A FEW CARDS, OR, A FEW TRICKS IN ADVANCE OF THE NEGOTIATION.

HE SAID, WELL, WE KNOW ZELENSKYY STARTED THE WAR.

NONSENSE.

HE'S VOTED WITH RUSSIA AT THE UNITED NATIONS IN FAVOR OF A RESOLUTION WHICH DOESN'T EVEN TALK ABOUT THE INVASION OF UKRAINE.

EVEN CHINA COULDN'T BRING ITS TO VOTE FOR THAT.

SO, IT'S A NUMBER OF THINGS IN THAT NEGOTIATION WHICH HAVE BEGUN, IF YOU LIKE, FROM THE BRITISH POINT OF VIEW, I THINK GOING IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.

SO, IT WILL BE VERY, VERY IMPORTANT TO TRY TO GET DONALD TRUMP TO GRASP THAT A BAD DEAL, BAD FOR EUROPEAN SECURITY AND UKRAINE, BUT BAD BECAUSE IT CAUSES PUTIN TO DO OTHER BAD THINGS.

STARMER HAS TO CONVINCE THE PRESIDENT TO GO FOR A GOOD DEAL AND A DEAL WHICH INCLUDES UKRAINE IN THE NEGOTIATION, AND NOT SIDELINES HIM.

LIKE MARY SAID, DONALD TRUMP DID WHEN IT CAME TO THE AFGHANISTAN, WE KNOW HOW THAT ENDED.

>> YEAH, INCREDIBLY BADLY, BECAUSE IT WENT TO THE SO-CALLED AGGRESSORS, THE TALIBAN, WHO ARE NOW IN POWER, WITH EVERYTHING THAT HAS GONE ON, A COMPLETE DENIAL OF WOMEN'S RIGHTSED A NOT EVEN RECOGNIZED BY THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY, THE TALIBAN GOVERNMENT.

BACK TO UKRAINE.

KEIR STARMER, BEFORE WE KNEW ABOUT THIS LETTER, IT APPEARED THAT HIS BIG, BIG CHALLENGE WOULD BE TO TRY TO GET AN AMERICAN SO-CALLED BACKSTOP -- >> YES.

>> EVEN WITH NO U.S. BOOTS ON THE GROUND, AND IF EUROPE DID, YOU KNOW, AGREE TO POLICE ANY KIND OF CEASE-FIRE OR A PEACE DEAL.

AND A BACKSTOP GENERALLY MEANS AIR COVER, IT GENERALLY MEANS ANTI-AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS.

NO FLY ZONE, THAT KIND OF AIR COVER.

AND OBVIOUSLY A SHARING OF INTELLIGENCE, TO PROTECT BRITISH OR OTHER EUROPEAN TROOPS THAT ARE TRYING TO PREVENT PUTIN FROM ANY FURTHER INVASIONS.

WHAT IF THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN?

THEN WHAT HAPPENS TO ALL THE EUROPEAN GOOD WILL?

>> WELL, IF THERE'S NO U.S. SUPPORT, I THINK I'M RIGHT IN SAY SAYING THERE'S NO TROOPS ON THE GROUND, BECAUSE WE CAN'T DO IT ON OUR OWN.

BUT THERE'S A NUMBER OF THINGS THAT ARE STILL MOVING PARTS.

YOU REPORTER JUST SAID THE RUSSIANS HAVE SAID THAT THEIR -- THERE CANNOT BE ANY NEGOTIATION OVER THE OCCUPIED PARTS OF UKRAINE.

IN HIS REMARKS TO THE CABINET BROADCAST ON TELEVISION A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO, PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID I'M GOING TO GET BACK PARTS OF UKRAINE.

THAT WASN'T HIGHLIGHTED IN THE NEWS, BUT IT WAS ACTUALLY BROADCAST.

SO, WHERE IS THAT NEGOTIATION GOING TO GO?

THERE IS STILL WIGGLE ROOM AND THERE ARE A NUMBER OF ELEMENTS THAT COULD LOOK BETTER.

SO, I THINK ALSO, IN TERMS OF KEEPING ANY PEACE, IF THERE IS A PEACE, THERE'S STILL MUCH TO PLAY FOR.

BUT WITHOUT AN AMERICAN INVOLVEMENT, EVEN IF IT'S NEARBY, WHICH YOU CAN CALL ON IF THE NEED ARISES, THEN I THINK IT'S VERY, VERY HARD FOR THE EUROPEANS TO FILL THAT SPACE.

>> MORE COMING OUT FROM THEIR MEETING, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID RUSSIA HAS BEEN ACTING VERY WELL.

WE ARE WELL ADVANCED ON A PEACE DEAL.

I WANT YOU TO COMMENT ON THAT.

HE DOESN'T THINK PUTIN WOULD INVADE AGAIN IF THERE IS A PEACE DEAL.

HE SAID, HAVING THE RARE EARTHS DEAL WILL BE A BACKSTOP FOR UKRAINE.

>> WELL, I'M JUST TRYING TO DIGEST THAT.

I DON'T SEE HOW THAT'S A BACKSTOP FOR UKRAINE.

IT IS CERTAINLY AN ADVANTAGE FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, IF THERE IS A DEAL WHICH IS VERY BENEFICIAL FOR U.S. COMPANIES.

IT WILL NOT BE VERY WELCOME IN EUROPE, IF IT MEANS THAT EUROPEAN COMPANIES, AND LET'S REMEMBER, EUROPE HAS DONE FAR MORE FOR UKRAINE SO FAR THAN THE UNITED STATES HAS, WHATEVER TRUMP MAY SAY.

IF THEY ARE SQUEEZED OUT OF ANY RECONSTRUCTION PROJECTS OR MINERAL EXTRACTION CONTRACTS, THAT WON'T GO DOWN VERY WELL.

LEAVE THAT TO ONE SIDE.

I DON'T SEE HOW COMMERCIAL BENEFITS FOR AMERICAN COMPANIES IS A BACKSTOP -- >> HE SEEMS TO MEAN THAT BECAUSE AMERICANS WILL BE THERE INVOLVED IN THE COMMERCIAL ACTIVITIES, SOMEHOW IT WILL STAY -- BUT WE KNOW THERE ARE OTHER AMERICANS WHO FOR YEARS HAVE BEEN DOING BUSINESS IN UKRAINE AND THAT HASN'T STOPPED PUTIN FOR ANNEXING.

AND ACTUALLY, SOME OF THE PARTS THAT ARE ANNEXED DO HAVE A LOT OF THE MINERALS, MAYBE THAT'S THE DEAL HE'S DOING WITH PUTIN.

>> THEY DO, INDEED.

WE DON'T KNOW.

I DON'T THINK THAT DOES THE DEAL.

THAT DOES NOT PROVIDE THE BACKSTOP.

BUT I COME BACK TO MY FIRST POINT.

FIRST OF ALL, LET'S SEE IF WE CAN NEGOTIATE A DEAL THAT THE UKRAINIANS CAN LIVE WITH.

WE'RE A LONG WAY FROM THAT AT THE MOMENT.

HE MAY SAY WE'RE MAKING GREAT PROGRESS WITH THE RUSSIANS AND SAYS NICE THINGS WITH THE RUSSIANS, MAYBE THAT'S WISE.

BECAUSE LET'S FACE IT, VLADIMIR PUTIN DOESN'T HAVE ANY AMERICAN PRESIDENT WHO IS GOING TO NEGOTIATE WITH HIM SO AMICABLY, SO, MAYBE YOU STROKE HIM A BIT AND YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING TO GET A BETTER DEAL.

THE PROBLEM THAT THE REST OF US HAVE WITH THAT IS THAT EVERY SINGLE TIME ANYONE'S DONE A DEAL WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN BEFORE, IT'S WORTHLESS.

HE LIES THROUGH HI TEETH.

>> EXACTLY.

AND TO YOUR POINT.

TOM FRIEDMAN FROM "THE NEW YORK TIMES" SAID TRUMP COMPLETELY MISREADS PUTIN.

HE THINKS PUTIN JUST NEEDS A LITTLE POSITIVE ATTENTION, A LITTLE UNDERSTANDING, A LITTLE CONCERN FOR HIS SECURITY NEEDS, A HUG.

AND HE WILL SIGN THE PEACE TRUMP SO BADLY DESIRES.

NONSENSE.

AS THE RUSSIA SPECIALIST LEON AARON REMARKED TO ME, PUTIN IS NOT LOOKING FOR PEACE IN UKRAINE.

HE'S LOOKING FOR VICTORY IN UKRAINE.

BECAUSE WITHOUT A VICTORY, HE IS VERY VULNERABLE AT HOME.

SO, OTHERS HAVE SUGGESTED, BUT YOU'RE A DIPLOMAT.

IS PUTIN PLAYING TRUMP?

IS TRUMP BEING PLAYED?

>> PUTIN -- BEFORE I TRY TO ANSWER THAT.

PUTIN IS, OF COURSE, LOOKING FOR A VICTORY, BUT WHAT DOES A VICTORY MEAN?

DOES IT MEAN TOTAL TERRITORIAL GAIN?

NOT NECESSARILY.

NOT NOW.

NOT AFTER THE FAILURES OF HIS ARMY.

BUT HE DOES WANT TO SQUASH DEMOCRACY AND HE WANTS TO ENSURE THERE IS NO SOVEREIGN, INDEPENDENT UKRAINE NEXT DOOR TO RUSSIA.

NOT BECAUSE IT'S A THREAT TO RUSSIA.

IT NEVER WAS.

IT'S A PACK OF LIES.

IT'S BECAUSE OF THE CONTAMINATION RISK OF DEMOCRACY IN RUSSIA, SOMETHING THAT PUTIN CAN'T REALLY COPE WITH.

SO, THAT IS A PROBLEM.

THE OTHER HALF OF YOUR QUESTION, I'VE -- >> IS HE BEING PLAYED, TRUMP, BY PUTIN, WHO IS A KGB, YOU KNOW, PROFESSIONAL, WHO KNOWS HOW TO DO THIS STUFF.

>> TO THE EXTENT THAT HE SAYS ALL THIS NICE STUFF ABOUT HIS GOOD WILL, HE'S A DECENT MAN, I THINK HE'S BEING PLAYED.

BUT WE DO ALSO KNOW THAT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN TRUMP AND RUSSIA GOES BACK, YOU KNOW, A LONG WAY, A LOT OF BUSINESS DEALINGS, A LOT OF FRIENDSHIP.

THE BODY LANGUAGE THAT PEOPLE HAVE REMARKED ON IN THE PAST.

WE DON'T KNOW THE FULL EXTENT OF IT.

BUT IT DOES LOOK AS THOUGH HE IS INCLINED TO GIVE THAT GENTLEMAN THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT WHEN HE'S NOT INCLINED TO GIVE SOMEONE LIKE ZELENSKYY, WHO IS NOT, BY THE WAY, A DICTATOR.

>> WE ALL KNOW THAT.

>> THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.

SO, THE LANGUAGE IS BIZARRE.

THE HISTORY IS COMPLEX.

THE WORRYING THING FROM THE EUROPEAN POINT OF VIEW IS A BAD DEAL, NOT ONLY IS TERRIBLE FOR UKRAINE AND EUROPEAN SECURITY, BUT IT IS NOTHING BUT A GREEN LIGHT TO PUTIN TO CARRY ON IN THE SAME DIRECTION.

>> ONE OF YOUR FORMER COLLEAGUES IN GOVERNMENT, AND IN THE CIVIL SERVICE, SAID ON THE RADIO TODAY THAT TRUMP'S OWN BOOK SAYS A BAD DEAL IS WORSE THAN NO DEAL.

THE THING IS, WHAT IS A GOOD DEAL?

AND THEY HAVEN'T REALLY -- HE SAYS HE'S WELL ADVANCED ON A PEACE DEAL, BUT THEY HAVEN'T REALLY SPELLED OUT WHAT THAT MIGHT BE.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU WANT TO VENTURE A GUESS?

>> WE DON'T KNOW.

LET'S LOOK BACK AT THE EARLIER VERSION OF THE MINERAL EXTRACTIONS RARE EARTHS DEAL, WHICH WAS AN APPALLING DOCUMENT WHICH WAS PRODUCED BY SOME TRUMP LAWYERS IN NEW YORK AND HANDED TO ZELENSKYY BY ONE OF THE MEMBERS -- >> BESSENT.

>> YES.

>> AND WE KNOW THEY JUST PUT IT DOWN, THEY PUSHED IT TO HIM, PLEASE SIGN IT, DON'T EVEN READ.

IF YOU DON'T SIGN IT, YOU WON'T GET ANY MEETINGS -- >> AND THEY TELL ME THE DEAL WAS ABSOLUTELY OUTRAGEOUS.

THE NEW VERSION THAT WE'RE TOLD THAT HE'S GOING TO POSSIBLY SIGN IN WASHINGTON TOMORROW IS APPARENTLY INFINITELY BETTER, BUT IT STILL -- >> NO SECURITY GUARANTEES.

>> THE SECURITY PROBLEMS OF UKRAINE WITH RUSSIA NEXT DOOR AND OCCUPYING -- >> AND IT ALSO TALKS ABOUT A 50% AMERICAN OWNERSHIP OF CERTAIN -- OF CERTAIN -- >> OF A FUND.

>> FUTURE MINERALS.

>> OWNERSHIP OF MINERALS, I'LL NOT SURE.

OWNERSHIP OF A FUND WHICH WILL BE EXTRACTING THOSE THINGS IS LESS DAMAGING, BUT A VERY PREFERENTIAL DEAL.

>> THIS GOES TO THE HEART OF WHAT IS GOING ON BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND ITS TRADITIONAL ALLIES IN EUROPE.

>> YES.

>> THAT'S LASTED SINCE THE WAR ENDED 80 YEARS AGO.

TRUMP, AS I SAID, YOU KNOW, AND I'M GOING TO -- I'M GOING TO READ YOU THIS, BUT TRUMP BASICALLY YESTERDAY, I MEAN, REALLY FROM THE WHITE HOUSE, I MEAN, JUST, I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO DESCRIBE IT.

>> I LOVE THE COUNTRIES OF EUROPE.

I LOVE ALL COUNTRIES, FRANKLY, ALL DIFFERENT, BUT EUROPEAN UNION'S BEEN -- IT WAS FORMED IN ORDER TO SCREW THE UNITED STATES.

I MEAN, LOOK.

LET'S BE HONEST.

THE EUROPEAN UNION WAS FORMED IN ORDER TO SCREW THE UNITED STATES.

THAT'S THE PURPOSE OF IT.

AND THEY'VE DONE A GOOD JOB OF IT, BUT NOW I'M PRESIDENT.

>> WELL.

>> IS THAT TRUE?

>> NO, IT'S NOT THE REASON THE EUROPEAN UNION WAS FORMED.

THE EUROPEAN UNION WAS FORMED TO TRY TO CREATE PROSPERITY FROM A VERY BADLY DAMAGED CONTINENT AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR DESTROYED BY COMBINATION OF RUSSIANS AND NAMELY HITLER AND GERMANY.

REMEMBER, THE NAZI/SOVIET PACK LED TO THE RUSSIAN INVASION OF A NUMBER OF EUROPEAN COUNTRIES BEFORE HITLER INVADED RUSSIA AND RUSSIA BECAME PART OF THE LIBERATION SIDE.

THE EUROPEAN UNION WAS ABSOLUTELY NOT FORMED TO SCREW THE UNITED STATES.

AND DURING THE COLD WAR, THAT WAS SOMETHING WHICH THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA THOUGHT WAS A VERY GOOD IDEA.

>> MORE FROM HIS OVAL OFFICE MEETING WITH PRIME MINISTER STARMER, HE WAS OBVIOUSLY ASKED AGAIN, TRUMP, WHETHER HE TRUSTS PUTIN, AND HE USED THE REAGANISM, WHICH IS SMART, TRUST BUT VERIFY.

>> YEAH.

>> DOES THAT GIVE YOU A LITTLE BIT MORE, YOU KNOW, BEFORE -- DO YOU REMEMBER IN HELSINKI, I WAS THERE, WATCHING THOSE -- THE PRESS CONFERENCE, WHEN HE SIDED WITH PUTIN OVER HIS OWN INTELLIGENCE ABOUT PUTIN'S DENIALS OF INTERFERING IN THE 2016 ELECTION.

>> YEAH.

HE -- >> SO, THIS IS -- >> I BELIEVE PUTIN RATHER THAN I BELIEVE MY OWN INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES.

THAT WAS A LOW POINT.

IF HE'S TALKING OF TRUST BUT VERIFY, IT MAY BE THAT A LOT OF WHAT WE'RE HEARING IS NOISE, IT'S ATMOSPHERICS, BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE SUBSTANCE, WE'LL BE PLEASANTLY SURPRISED.

THERE IS ALWAYS THAT POSSIBILITY.

WE SHOULD NEVER THINK THAT TRUMP DOESN'T MEAN WHAT HE SAYS.

I'M SURE THAT WHEN HE SAYS IT, HE DOES MEAN IT, BUT IT DOESN'T MEAN TO SAY A COUPLE OF DAYS LATER HE STILL MEANS IT.

>> INTERESTINGLY, I SPOKE TO THE LADY WHO WAS THE LEADER OF EUROPE, CHANCELLOR ANGELA MERKEL, AND OBVIOUSLY, IN OFFICE WHEN TRUMP 137B9 1.0 WAS THERE.

AND IN HER MEMOIR SHE'S TALKED ABOUT DEALING WITH HIM.

AND I ASKED HER IN AN INTERVIEW ABOUT DEALING WITH HIM, HOW DO ALLIES OR -- ALLIES MOSTLY, HOW DO THEY -- HOW DO THEY DEAL WITH, YOU KNOW, THE BULLYING, FRANKLY.

AND THIS IS WHAT SHE SAID.

>> ONCE YOU APPROACHED HIM WITHOUT ANY FEAR AND WITH A CLEAR-CUT STRATEGY, HE LISTENED.

AND I THINK HE SMELLS WHEN PEOPLE ARE A LITTLE BIT AFRAID OF HIM.

AND WHEN YOU'RE NOT, THEN YOU CAN ENTER INTO TALKS WITH HIM.

>> AND YOU WERE NOT.

>> I WAS THE ELECTED CHANCELLOR OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY.

I MEAN, WE'RE NOT A -- WE HAVE OWN OUR INTERESTS, OUR OWN VESTED INTERESTS, AND I WAS ALWAYS GUIDED BY THESE NATIONAL INTERESTS.

>> SO, I MEAN, TWO THINGS I WOULD SAY ABOUT THAT.

ONE IS, I'M SURE THAT IS RIGHT, THAT HE LIKES TO PUT PEOPLE ILL AT EASE.

THAT'S WHAT BULLIES DO.

SECONDLY THIS IS THE CHANCE RECORD CHANCELLOR, WHO WHEN SHE WENT TO SEE PUTIN, ENSURED THAT THIS LADY HAD -- >> THIS IS ABOUT TRUMP -- >> I THOUGHT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT PUTIN.

SHE'S TALKING ABOUT TRUMP.

>> I THOUGHT THIS WAS PUTIN.

>> SHE'S TALKING ABOUT TRUMP.

AND IT'S INTERESTING, BECAUSE SHE SAID, WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR NATIONAL INTERESTS, NOT ABOUT -- >> YES.

>> CONCEPTS OF DEMOCRACY AND AUTHORITARIANISM AND DISINFORMATION, BUT HARD-NOSED NATIONAL SECURITY, HE'LL LISTEN AND HE'LL GENERALLY GET WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

>> AS LONG AS YOU'RE VERY CLEAR WHAT YOUR OWN PRIORITIES ARE AND AS LONG AS THERE ARE SOMETHING IN IT FOR HIM.

NOT PERSONALLY, BUZZ T HE'S A TRANSACTIONIST.

>> DO YOU THINK STARMER HAS BEEN PREPARED TO GIVE THAT KIND OF DISCOURSE TO TRUMP?

NATIONAL INTEREST?

>> NATIONAL INTEREST AND IT WILL NEVER WORK IF YOU SAY, THIS IS FOR THE FUTURE OF HUMANITY OR THIS IS GOOD FOR EUROPE.

IF IT IS, HERE'S WHAT WE'RE BRINGING TO AN EXERCISE WHICH IS GOOD FOR YOU, PERSONALLY, AND YOUR PRESIDENCY, AND GOOD FOR THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, THEN YOU'RE IN WITH A CHANCE OF FINDING THERE IS COMMON GROUND AND YOU CAN WORK TOGETHER.

SO, YES, APPEALING TO HIGHER INSTINCTS OR JUST ASKING FOR HELP WILL NEVER GET AWAY WITH HIM.

IT'S GOT TO BE SPECIFIC, SOMETHING THAT'S GOOD FOR AMERICA AS WELL AS.

AND IF YOU ARE GOING TO BRING SOMETHING TO THE TABLE THAT'S WHY HE'S DONE THE 2.5%, THEN I THINK YOU ARE IN BETTER SHAPE.

AND IT THINK HE WILL PROBABLY ALWAYS BRING WITH HIM, I HOPE, EVIDENCE OF WHAT THE UNITED KINGDOM BRINGS TO THE STRATEGIC ALLIANCE WITH THE UNITED STATES.

THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MOST PEOPLE ARE DIDN'T THEY INTERESTED IN, BUT YOU KNOW, AROUND THE WORLD, WHETHER IT'S CYPRUS OR FAULKLANDS, THERE ARE U.S. AND UK -- UK DEFENSE INSTALLATIONS WHICH ARE PUT AT THE DISPOSAL OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> YEAH.

>> HUGELY IMPORTANT.

>> HUGELY IMPORTANT.

NOW, I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU WERE ALSO AMBASSADOR TO FRANCE, AS WE KNOW, AND ALSO TO TURKEY.

>> YEAH.

>> AND TODAY THERE WAS QUITE A BOMBSHELL, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT YOU THINK.

THE LEADER OF THE PKK, THE MAIN KURDISH RESISTANCE PARTY, HAS ASKED HIS FIGHTERS TO LAY DOWN ARMS AND TO STOP THE WAR WITH THE GOVERNMENT.

AND, YOU KNOW, FOR FIVE DECADES, SOME 40,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED.

IS THAT SORT OF ERDOGAN IN AN UNASSAILABLE POSITION IN TURKEY -- HOW DO YOU READ THIS?

>> I THINK IT'S POTENTIAL ALREADY VERY SIGNIFICANT, FOR TWO PRINCIPLE -- >> ERDOGAN HAS THE SECOND-BIGGEST ARMY IN NATO, SECOND TO THE U.S. >> THEY DO.

AND THEY ARE NOT SCARED OF FIRING LIVE BULLETS, AS WE HAVE SEEN.

SO, THEY ARE A REAL ASSET FOR THE NATO ALLIANCE, IF THEY ARE DEPLOYED IN THE COMMON GOOD.

TWO THINGS.

FIRST OF ALL, THIS CONFLICT WITH THE PKK, THE TERRORIST ORGANIZATION OF KURDS IN SOUTHEASTERN TURKEY HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR THE LAST 30, 40 YEARS.

PROBABLY 40,000 PEOPLE HAVE LOST THEIR LIVES.

IT'S BEEN A TERRIBLE BUSINESS.

MR. ERDOGAN -- THE LEADER OF T NONVIOLENCE, I WOULD SAY, KURDISH PARTY, HAS BEEN IN JAIL, ON EITHER NONCHARGES, OR SLIGHTLY CURIOUS CHARGES.

IF THIS MEANS THAT THE PKK, WHO ARE LIKE THE .R.A.

IN NORTHERN IRELAND A FEW YEARS BACK, IF IT MEANS THEY'RE NO LONGER BEING REGARDED AS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, THIS OPENS UP THE POSSIBILITY OF A GREAT DEAL OF CALM AND PEACE IN TURKEY.

IT OPENS UP THE POSSIBILITY OF MUCH BETTER RELATIONS BETWEENERED WAND'S RULING PARTY, AND HE'S LOOKING TO BROADEN THE BASE, BY THE WAY, FOR THE FUTURE.

AND IT OPENS UP THE POSSIBILITY OF SOMETHING POSITIVE HAPPENING IN SYRIA, WHERE THERE IS A PROBLEM BETWEEN TURKEY AND THE AMERICANS, OVER AMERICAN SUPPORT FOR THE KURDISH MILITIA GROUPS, WHICH WERE VERY EFFECTIVE IN DEALING WITH ISIS, BUT WHICH THE TURKS HAVE BEEN VERY NERVOUS ABOUT, WHICH, IF THEY ARE NOW GOING TO LAY DOWN THEIR WEAPONS AGAIN AND STOP BEING PART OF THE PROBLEM IN TURKEY, THAT COULD OPEN UP THE POSSIBILITY OF THOSE DIFFERENT MILITIAS INSIDE SYRIA COMING TOGETHER WITH TURKISH SUPPORT AND MAYBE EVEN U.S. SUPPORT, TOO.

POTENTIALLY SIGNIFICANT.

>> REALLY INTERESTING.

SO MANY MOVING PARTS.

THANK YOU.

>>> IN WASHINGTON, OF COURSE, THE PARADE OF PRESIDENTS CONTINUES, WITH UKRAINE'S VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY COMING TO HOLD TALKS WITH DONALD TRUMP TOMORROW.

FRIDAY.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS THEY'LL SIGN THIS AGREEMENT ON MINERALS THAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAYS IT'S MORE OF A FRAMEWORK, THAT HE HOPES WILL BE A FIRST STEP TO SECURING THOSE SECURITY GUARANTEES HE'D SO DESPERATELY NEEDS FROM THE UNITED STATES.

HERE IN THESE DUELING REMARKS ARE UKRAINE'S CHALLENGE IN A NUTSHELL.

>> PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY IS GOING TO BE COMING ON FRIDAY, IT'S NOW CONFIRMED, AND WE'RE GOING TO BE SIGNING AN AGREEMENT, WHICH WILL BE A VERY BIG AGREEMENT, AND I WANT TO THANK HOWARD AND SCOTT FOR THE JOB YOU GUYS DID, YOU -- PUTTING IT TOGETHER.

REALLY DID AN AMAZING JOB.

AND THAT WILL BE ON RARE EARTH, AND OTHER THINGS.

>> OF COURSE, THIS AGREEMENT IS ABOUT ECONOMICS, BUT I ASKED FOR THERE TO BE AN UNDERSTANDING THAT WE ARE SEEING THINGS THE SAME WAY.

THAT ALL OF IT IS PART OF FUTURE SECURITY GUARANTEES, SO, EVEN IN THE FRAMEWORK AGREEMENT, I WANTED THERE TO BE AT LEAST A SENTENCE, SECURITY GUARANTEES FOR UKRAINE.

>> SO, ARE THE PRESIDENTS SEEING THINGS THE SAME WAY?

OLEKSII REZNIKOV SERVED AS UKRAINE'S DEFENSE MINISTER DURING THE FIRST 18 MONTHS OF THE WAR, AND HE TOOK PART IN PEACE NEGOTIATIONS WITH RUSSIA BACK THEN.

HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM KYIV.

WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK, YOUR PRESIDENT CAN ACHIEVE WHEN HE GETS TO THE WHITE HOUSE?

AND I JUST WANT TO START BY SAYING THIS, TRUMP HAS JUST SAID THE RELATIONSHIP WITH ZELENSKYY DID GET A LITTLE BIT TESTY, BUT IT WILL CERTAINLY TRY TO GET AS MUCH LAND BACK FOR UKRAINE.

HE SAYS THAT RUSSIA IS BEHAVING WELL, AND THAT THEY ARE WELL ON THEIR WAY TO THIS PEACE DEAL.

WHAT -- WHAT DID YOU -- GIVE ME YOUR REACTION.

>> YOU KNOW, CHRISTIANE, I WOULD THINK THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP, HE'S A FORMER BUSINESSMAN, AND PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY ALSO IS A FORMER BUSINESSMAN, VERY SUCCESSFUL BUSINESSMAN.

SO, THEY BECAME POLITICIANS.

SO, THEY WILL HAVE EQUAL COMMUNICATION IN WHITE HOUSE, AS A BUSINESSMAN.

THEY WILL USE THE BUSINESS APPROACH.

AND SIMULTANEOUSLY POLITICAL APPROACH.

IN ALL TYPES OF NEGOTIATION, SIDES SHOULD RECOGNIZE THE REAL NEEDS AND INTERESTS OF THE SIDES.

WE SEE THAT IT'S NOT BILATERAL NEGOTIATION BETWEEN UKRAINE AND RUSSIA.

THIS IS MULTILATERAL NEGOTIATION PROCESS.

SO THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THE INTERESTS OF THE UNITED STATES, THE INTERESTS OF UKRAINE, THE INTERESTS OF RUSSIA, CERTAINLY, THE INTERES OF THE EUROPEAN UNION, THE EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, AND PROBABLY THE INTERESTS OF THE CHINA, WHICH IS STAYING BEHIND THE RUSSIA.

SO, I THINK THAT IT WOULD BE -- >> NO, NO, I'M SORRY TO INTERRUPT, I JUST WANT TO ASK, BECAUSE YOU WERE THERE, AS I SAID IN THE ROOM, IN ONE OF THE FIRST ROUNDS SHORTLY AFTER THE INVASION OF TRYING TO GET SOME KIND OF RESOLUTION TO THIS.

HOW DID IT GO?

REMIND US WHAT HAPPENED THERE.

>> AH, YOU KNOW SH , IT WAS REA TRADITIONAL RUSSIAN APPROACH TO TRYING TO CONDUCT NEGOTIATION FROM THE POSITION OF THE FORCE OR THE POWER.

AND THEY TRYING TO DELIVER TO UKRAINIAN SIDE THEIR SO-CALLED POLITE WAY OF -- THAT'S IT.

>> AND DO YOU THINK, FROM EVERYTHING YOU SEE, AND I ASSUME YOU'RE ON TOP OF RUSSIAN MEDIA AND YOU HAVE ALL SORTS OF AVENUES OF INFORMATION THAT MAYBE WE DON'T HAVE HERE.

DO YOU SEE ANYTHING SINCE TRUMP HAS STARTED THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT ENDING THE WAR, FROM RUSSIA, FROM MOSCOW, THAT SUGGESTS THAT THEY'RE CHANGING OR DOING ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT YOU JUST SAID, DEMANDING CAPITULATION, HOWEVER DIPLOMATICALLY?

>> I SAW DIFFERENT TYPES OF FOOTAGE FROM THE RUSSIAN SIDE.

THEY STARTING NEW APPROACH, TRYING TO DELIVER TO THEIR POPULATION THAT PROBABLY THEY WILL FIGHT -- SO, I THINK THEY SEE THE BIG ECONOMICAL SITUATION IN THEIR COUNTRY.

YOU CAN CHECK THE REPORT OF THE CENTRAL BANK, I MEAN, LITERAL, THE CENTRAL BANK OF RUSSIA.

THEY ARE RISING THE INTEREST FOR THE CREDITS.

SO, I THINK THAT IN THE INTEREST OF RUSSIA TO STOP THIS WAR ALSO.

>> SO, HE SAID THAT -- I MEAN, I GUESS IT'S UNFAIR TO ASK YOU, BUT TRUMP SAID THAT PUTIN WOULD ALSO HAVE TO MAKE CONCESSIONS.

CAN YOU IMAGINE ANY -- I MEAN, TODAY, IT'S PROBABLY, I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY A NEGOTIATING IN PUBLIC, BUT MOSCOW SAID NONNEGOTIABLE, WHATEVER'S BEEN OCCUPIED AND ANNEXED BY RUSSIA PROBABLY SINCE 2014 IS NONNEGOTIABLE.

>> I'M SURE THEY'LL START WITH THIS POSITION.

BECAUSE IN ALL KIND OF NEGOTIATION, THERE SHOULD BE SOME ZONE OF POSSIBLE AGREEMENT.

THEY HAVE A ZONE, AND THEY ARE TRYING TO DELIVER TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION THAT SOMETHING IS NONNEGOTIABLE, LIKE CRIMEA OR DONETSK.

AND AS I HEARD THAT THEY JUST FINISHED MEETING IN ISTANBUL, IN TURKEY, BETWEEN RUSSIA AND AMERICAN SIDES.

SO THIS IS NOT EASY PROCESS, BUT I -- I SEE, IT'S GOING ON ON A GOOD WAY.

>> SO, YOU -- YOU'RE POSITIVE, THEN, YOU FEEL MORE POSITIVE ABOUT THIS?

>> YOU KNOW, I'M ALWAYS, I'M AN OPTIMIST, INCLUDING FEBRUARY 2022, I KEEPING MY OPTIMISM.

IT'S MY KEY HOW TO SURVIVE IN THIS WORLD.

>> YEAH, I THINK A LOT OF YOUR PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SAYING, UKRAINIAN PEOPLE HAVE BEEN VERY CONCERNED ABOUT THE FLIP-FLOP FROM THE UNITED STATES ABOUT PRAISING PUTIN, ABOUT KIND OF TRYING TO DELEGITIMIZE YOUR PRESIDENT, VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY.

TODAY, TRUMP WAS ASKED AGAIN, DURING HIS MEETING IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

AND OF COURSE, HE'S MEETING YOUR PRESIDENT TOMORROW, WHETHER HE STILL THINKS ZELENSKYY IS A DICTATOR.

AND HE SAID, DID I SAY THAT?

SO, HE'S KIND OF SHOWING THAT PERHAPS HE MIGHT NOT SAY THAT AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW, BUT ANYWAY.

HE DIDN'T DOUBLE DOWN TODAY.

AND I GUESS MY QUESTION IS, WHAT IS THE BEST IN TERMS OF A SECURITY GUARANTEE THAT UKRAINE CAN EXPECT?

I'M GOING TO PLAY YOU WHAT TRUMP SAID ABOUT EUROPE, ABOUT NOT PROVIDING A SECURITY GUARANTEE FOR THIS MINERAL DEAL.

LET ME JUST PLAY IT.

>> WELL, I'M NOT GOING TO MAKE SECURITY GUARANTEES BEYOND -- VERY MUCH.

WE'RE GOING TO HAVE EUROPE DO THAT, BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT EUROPE IS THEIR NEXTDOOR NEIGHBOR.

BUT WE'RE GOING TO MAKE SURE EVERYBODY GOES WELL, AND AS YOU KNOW, WE'LL BE MAKING A -- WE'LL BE REALLY PARTNERING WITH UKRAINE IN TERMS OF RARE EARTH.

WE VERY MUCH NEED RARE EARTH.

THEY HAVE GREAT RARE EARTH.

>> SO, I GUESS TWO QUESTIONS.

PARTNERING IN THIS ECONOMIC FORM, IS THAT FOR YOU, A FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER, A SUFFICIENT AND CREDIBLE SECURITY BACKSTOP, SECURITY GUARANTEE AGAINST A FURTHER RUSSIAN INVASION OR AGGRESSION?

>> YOU KNOW, UKRAINE CANNOT BELIEVE TO ANY SECURITY GUARANTEES WHICH WILL -- LOOKS LIKE BUDAPEST MEMORANDUM.

FOR US, TO BE A FULL-FLEDGED MEMBER OF THE NATO ALLIES, AND WE HAVE THE SAME APPROACH IN OUR CONSTITUTION.

BUT WE ARE UNDERSTAND THAT AT THIS MOMENT, IT WOULD BE SOMETHING NEW, SOME KIND OF NEW SECURITY ARCHITECTURE.

AND PRESIDENT TRUMP IN HIS PREVIOUS TENURE, ALSO TRYING TO PUSH EUROPEAN COUNTRIES TO RISE UP THEIR BUDGETS FOR THE DEFENSE.

BECAUSE A LOT OF EUROPEAN COUNTRIES DIDN'T SPEND MONEY FOR THE NATO, FOR THEIR SECURITIES.

AND TODAY, PRESIDENT TRUMP AGAIN TRYING TO DELIVER THEM THIS MESSAGE.

I HEARD THAT MUNICH IN CONFERENCE A COUPLE WEEKS AGO, AND I THINK THAT IN HIS MIND, THAT HE HAS PROTECT AMERICAN INTEREST AND PUSH AGAIN EUROPEAN COUNTRIES TO INVEST IN THEIR SECURITY.

THE BEST WAY TO INVEST IN SECURITY OF EUROPE, ITS INVESTMENT TO THE UKRAINE.

SO, WE HAVE TO STRENGTHEN ARMED FORCES OF UKRAINE, BECAUSE UKRAINE IS AN EASTERN FLANK OF THE EUROPE.

IT IS ABSOLUTELY UNDERSTANDABLE FOR ME.

SO -- AND I BELIEVE THAT THE DEAL ABOUT THE MINERALS, ABOUT THE OTHER TYPE OF RESOURCES WILL PROVIDE THE INTERESTS OF UNITED STATES TO PROTECT THE INVESTMENT ALSO, BUT AS I SEE, PRESIDENT TRUMP TRYING TO PERSUADE EUROPEAN LEADERS TO STAY WITH THE UKRAINE, USING THEIR BUDGETS, USING THEIR MONEY.

SPENDING THEIR MONEY.

>> WELL, A LOT OF THEM HAVE SAID THEY WILL, WE HEARD ALSO TODAY AGAIN FROM THE NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL MARK RUTTE THAT HE SAYS HE'S HAD A GREAT CALL WITH TRUMP.

AND THAT THEY SAY THEY'RE GOING TO PROVIDE MORE WEAPONS, YOU KNOW, THE -- NATO, TO UKRAINE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK, I MEAN, I KNOW THAT YOU'RE NO LONGER DEFENSE MINISTER, BUT I DON'T KNOW, DO -- DOES UKRAINE HAVE ENOUGH, DO YOU THINK, TO KEEP FIGHTING FOR THE REST OF THIS YEAR?

WHAT IS -- WHAT IS ITS CAPABILITY RIGHT NOW?

>> YES.

YOU KNOW THAT THIS WAR STARTED WHEN UKRAINIANS USED SOVIET-ERA LEGACY, I MEAN, WEAPONRY, AND TODAY, WE ARE USING SOVIET-ERA WEAPONRY, NATO STANDARD WEAPONRY, AND UKRAINIAN INVENTIONS.

AS YOU KNOW, WE HAVE NAVY FORCES, BUT WE HAVE NO FLEET.

OUR FLEET WAS OCCUPIED IN CRIMEA IN 2014.

BUT RUSSIAN FLEET IS STILL HIDING FROM US MORE THAN 250 KILOMETERS, BECAUSE WE ARE USING NEW SYSTEMS, ROBOTIC SYSTEMS, SEA DRONES.

AND YOU KNOW THAT UKRAINE HAS THE FLEX CRUISER IN APRIL 2022.

TODAY, THE CONTACT LINE LOOKS LIKE 50 KILOMETERS WIDE AND 1,000 KILOMETERS LONG, BECAUSE WE ARE USING DRONES AGAINST THEM, THEY ARE USING ALSO THAT KIND OF WARFARE AGAINST US.

IT'S A NEW STYLE OF WAR IN THE WORLD.

IT'S A LAST CONVENTIONAL AL WA THE EARTH.

SO, WE HAVE UKRAINIAN PRODUCTION CAPACITY OF THE ELECTRONIC WARFARE, PLUS WE'RE ARTILLERY SYSTEMS FROM THE NATO STANDARDS.

SO, IT'S NEW WAR.

THE QUESTION OF THE MANPOWER IS NOT A QUESTION.

IT'S NOT A QUESTION OF QUANTITY, IT'S A QUESTION OF QUALITY.

RUSSIA INVITED NORTH KOREAN SOLDIERS TO -- TO THE BATTLEFIELD, BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO CAPACITY TO FIGHTING.

THEIR OFFENSIVE IS VERY CRAWLING.

THEY OCCUPYING FIVE METERS, 500 METERS PER DAY, AND LOSING 1,000 SOLDIERS PER DAY, WOUNDED AND KILLED IN ACTIONS.

SO, IT'S A NEW STYLE OF THE WAR.

IT'S NOT A QUESTION OF THE MANPOWER AGAIN.

SO, WE HAVE CAPACITY TO FIGHT.

AND WE HAVE CAPACITY TO FIGHT BACK.

BUT IF YOU WANT TO BREAK THROUGH THE FRONT LINE, CERTAINLY WE NEED MORE WEAPONRY AND MORE DIFFERENT TYPES OF ORDNANCE.

>> YOU JUST LAID IT OUT, AND, YOU KNOW, WE KNOW, THE ECONOMIST HAS PUT THE FIGURES TOGETHER, THAT BACK IN 2022, DURING THE FULL-SCALE INVASION, RUSSIA OCCUPIED 19.6% OF YOUR TERRITORY, AND TODAY, THREE YEARS LATER, IT'S 19.2%.

SO, THAT GOES TO WHAT YOU'RE SAYING, THAT YOU ARE FIGHTING, IT'S REALLY HARD, BUT THEY'RE NOT WINNING.

TRUMP, OF COURSE, SAID THAT IF ZELENSKYY DOESN'T NEGOTIATE NOW, HE WILL HAVE NO MORE COUNTRY.

BUT I'M -- I'M WONDERING WHAT YOU THINK.

YOU WERE VERY PROMINENT IN TROLLING THE RUSSIANS, YOU WHEN YOU WERE DEFENSE MINISTER HAD A VERY VIGOROUS AND VIBRANT TWITTER ACCOUNT FROM THE DEFENSE MINISTRY AND YOU WERE CONSTANTLY POKING THE BEAR.

MOST PEOPLE FEEL AFRAID OF PUTIN.

THEY THINK HE'S THE STRONG GUY.

THIS IS WHAT I ASKED PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY ABOUT PUTIN BACK IN 2022.

UKRAINIANS ARE NOT AFRAID TO POKE THE BEAR, SO, THE BEAR IS THE RUSSIAN BEAR, AND YOU GUYS ARE CONSTANTLY POKING ON THE GROUND, IN THE BATTLE, IN THE AIR WAVES, IN THE TWITTER ACCOUNTS OF THE MINISTRY OF DEFENSE, ALL OVER.

A LOT OF PEOPLE OUTSIDE ARE AFRAID OF RUSSIA AND WHAT RUSSIA MIGHT DO.

WHERE DID THIS COME FROM?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT RUSSIA FIELDS ON THESE FEARS.

AND I THINK THIS IS A BIG MISTAKE OF THE LAST FEW DECADES.

RUSSIA FEELS IT HAS THIS POWER.

THE MORE YOU GIVE IT, THE MORE IT FUELS YOUR FEAR.

IT LIVES BY IT.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT STILL APPLIES?

SHOULD PEOPLE LIKE PRESIDENT TRUMP AND OTHERS, YOU KNOW, CONSIDER THAT, WHEN THEY TALK TO PUTIN?

>> I THINK THAT ALWAYS WE ARE LIVING IN A SO-CALLED COGNITIVE BIAS.

LIKE IN 2022, IT WAS VERY POPULAR COGNITIVE BIAS THAT UKRAINE WILL FALL DURING THREE DAYS.

BUT WE HAVE BEEN FIGHTING THREE YEARS.

AND I THINK THAT THE NEXT STAGE OF THE COGNITIVE BIAS IS THAT RUSSIA CANNOT LOSE THIS WAR BECAUSE IT WOULD BE DISASTER ON THEIR TERRITORY, IT WOULD BE A BAD SIGN FOR THEIR REGIME, AND ONLY WE KNOW THAT RUSSIA IS A PAPER TIGER.

BECAUSE WHEN RUSSIA TRIED TO CROSS THE BORDER WITH UKRAINE, THEY HAD A PERCEPTION THAT 30% OF UKRAINIANS WILL MEET THEM WITH THE FLOWERS, 60% OF UKRAINIANS WILL KEEP IRRELEVANT POSITION, ONLY 10% WILL FIGHT.

BUT IN REALITY, ALL UKRAINIANS FIGHTING.

SO, THAT -- I THINK THAT, I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH MY PRESIDENT.

>> AND IN OUR LAST FEW SECONDS, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE FATE OF YOUR COUNTRY NOW?

WHAT IF SOME DEAL IS DONE THAT'S NOT A, YOU KNOW, NOT A DEAL THAT UKRAINE CAN ACCEPT, YOU JUST KEEP FIGHTING?

>> AH, WE HAVE NO ANY CHANCE.

WE NEED TO SURVIVE.

WE ARE FIGHTING FOR OUR LIVES, FOR OUR FAMILIES, FOR OUR HOUSES, AND, YES, WE ARE TIRED, IT'S FATIGUE SYNDROME, CERTAINLY, BUT WE HAVE NOT ANY CHOICES, SO, WE WILL FIGHT.

AND I ABSOLUTELY AM SURE THAT EUROPEANS UNDERSTOOD IT, AND THEY WILL HELP US ALSO.

THEY WILL SUPPORT US.

I KNOW IT, FROM THE POLAND, LITHUANIA, DENMARK, A LOT OF COUNTRIES ARE WITH US AND THEY WILL STAY WITH US.

>> REALLY IMPORTANT TIME, YOUR PRESIDENT IS HEADED TO THE WHITE HOUSE TOMORROW.

OLEKSII REZNIKOV, FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> AND NOW, WITH WARS BEING WAGED AROUND THE WORLD, NOT ONLY IN UKRAINE, IN GAZA, BUT SUDAN AND ALL OVER THE PLACE, WITH TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE BEING KILLED, INDIVIDUAL AND COLLECTIVE GRIEF HAVE BECOME FRONT AND CENTER IN ALL OF DAILY LIVES.

RENOWNED EXPERT DAVID KESSLER ARGUES THAT A WORLD OVERWHELMED BY CONSTANT CRISES IS BECOMING, QUOTE, GRIEF ILL IT WILL RAT.

AND HE'S JOINING MICHEL MARTIN NOW TO EXPLAIN WHY IT'S IMPORTANT TO DEDICATE TIME TO PROCESS DEATH IN OUR INCREASINGLY DESENSITIZED WORLD.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

DAVID KESSLER, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> SO GLAD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU ARE CONSIDERED ONE OF THE FORE MOST EXPERTS ON GRIEF AND GRIEVING.

WHAT ARE YOU SEEING AT THE MOMENT?

I MEAN, I KNOW WHAT I'M SEEING.

I'M SEEING, YOU KNOW, AIRLINE DISASTERS, YOU KNOW, WILDFIRES, FLOODS.

YOU KNOW, AN ELECTION SEASON THAT FOR SOME PEOPLE WAS -- WELL, FOR EVERYBODY IT WAS EXHAUST, BUT FOR SOME PEOPLE, IT WAS TRAUMATIC.

WHAT ARE YOU SEEING AROUND THE ISSUE THAT YOU'VE WORKED ON FOR SO MUCH OF YOUR ADULT LIFE?

>> WELL, I'M SEEING SUCH A TENSION RIGHT NOW, BETWEEN INDIVIDUAL GRIEF AND COLLECTIVE GRIEF.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S THAT SAYING ABOUT, PUT YOUR OWN OXYGEN MASK ON FIRST.

WELL, THE PLANE FEELS LIKE IT'S ON FIRE.

SO, HOW DO WE TAKE CARE OF OURSELVES, HOPING TO GET OUR GRIEF WITNESSED AND SEEN BY OTHERS, WHEN THEY'RE OVERWHELMED WITH SO MUCH PAIN ALREADY IN THE WORLD?

>> WHAT ARE YOU SEEING WITH THE PEOPLE THAT YOU'RE WORKING WITH?

>> MAINLY WHO I SEE IS, I SEE INDIVIDUAL PEOPLE WHO ARE IN OUR GROUPS, AS WELL AS THE THERAPISTS WHO ARE TREATING PEOPLE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

AND THEY'RE TELLING ME, PEOPLE ARE COMING IN FEELING LIKE THE WORLD DOESN'T HAVE TIME FOR THEIR OWN PAIN.

THEY'RE DEALING WITH THEIR MOTHER, THEIR FATHER, THEIR SPOUSE, THEIR CHILD, THEIR SIBLING WHO DIED, OR A HOME LOSS, OR ALL THE OTHER THINGS THAT ARE HAPPENING, AND THE WORLD IS MOVING SO FAST AND SO QUICKLY THAT YOUR NEWS FROM LAST NIGHT IS OLD NEWS TODAY.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, MAYBE I SHOULD HAVE ASKED THIS FIRST, HOW DO YOU DEFINE GRIEF?

>> I THINK OF GRIEF AS ALWAYS A CHANGE WE DIDN'T WANT.

SO, THAT MEANS, IT'S OBVIOUSLY ABOUT DEATH, BUT IT'S ALSO ABOUT SO MANY OTHER THINGS, WHETHER IT'S A HOME LOSS, AN AIRPLANE CRASH, SO MANY OF THE DISASTERS, THINGS THAT HAPPEN IN THE WORLD, MAYBE IT'S HOW YOU PERCEIVE OUR GOVERNMENT GOING.

THERE'S ALL THESE TYPES OF GRIEF.

THAT ALL LIVE TOGETHER IN THIS WORLD, AND SOMETIMES IN A PRETTY CLUNKY FASHION.

>> YOU RECENTLY CONTRIBUTED TO A PIECE IN "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" TITLED "WHY WE ARE GETTING WORSE AND GRIEVING.

"WHY DO YOU SAY WE'RE GETTING WORSE AT GRIEVING?

>> WELL, A LOT OF WHAT I'M TEACHING IS WHAT OUR GREAT-GRANDPARENTS KNEW.

HOW TO TAKE TIME FOR THEIR GRIEF.

IN OUR MODERN WORLD, WE FEEL SO MUCH PRESSURE TO GET TO THE NEXT MOMENT, DO THE NEXT THING, BE SO PRODUCTIVE, AND GRIEF HAS A MUCH LONGER SHADOW.

YOU KNOW, WE OFTEN THINK ABOUT GRIEF AS, LIKE, THE TV EPISODES WE SEE.

EPISODE ONE, SOMEONE DIES, EPISODE TWO, YOU DEAL WITH IT, EPISODE THREE, YOU GET BACK TO LIFE.

AND GRIEF IS MUCH MORE MESSY IN REAL LIFE, AND IT'S MUCH LONGER.

>> YOU HAVE SAID THAT WE LIVE IN A GRIEF-ILL IT WILL RAT WORLD.

WHY DO YOU SAY THAT, AND WHY DO YOU THINK THAT IS?

>> WELL, WE HAVE SANITIZED GRIEF AND LOSS AND DEATH IN OUR WORLD.

YOU KNOW, THERE WAS A TIME IN THE '40s, WHEN A DEATH MOVED INTO THE HOSPITAL, GRIEF MOVED INTO THE FUNERAL HOME, EVEN IF YOU HAVE A -- A FRONT DOOR THAT'S FROM A HOUSE IN THE '40s, IT'S WIDER, BECAUSE THE CASKET USED TO BE IN YOUR FRONT ROOM.

AND WE USED TO CALL, IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT, YOUR GRANDPARENTS, GREAT-GRANDPARENTS MAY HAVE CALLED IT THE PARLOR, AND WHAT HAPPENED IN THE PARLOR?

IT LEFT THE HOME AND IT BECAME THE FUNERAL PARLOR, AND WE SAID, YOUR FRONT ROOM SHOULD NOT BE FOR THE DYING, IT SHOULD BE A LIVING ROOM.

SO, WE'RE ALL ABOUT LIFE NOW, AND WE FEEL LIKE IT MAY BE BAD LUCK OR THE EVIL EYE TO THINK ABOUT DEATH BEFORE WE NEED TO.

I TELL PEOPLE, UNFORTUNATELY, THE DEATH RATE IS 100%.

YOU KNOW?

IT'S GOING TO COME TO ALL OF OUR WORLDS SOME DAY, AND WE PREPARE FOR EVERYTHING EXCEPT GRIEF.

>> BUT DON'T YOU -- FORGIVE ME FOR ASKING IT THIS WAY, BUT COULD SOME OF IT JUST BE THE WAY OUR WORKPLACES FUNCTION?

THERE ARE PLACES WHERE YOU DON'T HAVE BEREAVEMENT LEAVE, MAYBE IT'S A DAY.

AND IT HAS TO BE, LIKE, A CLOSE RELATIVE, LIKE A MOTHER OR A FATHER OR, GOD FORBID A CHILD, BUT AN AUNT WHO MAY HAVE HELPED RAISE YOU, A GRANDPARENT WHO MAY HAVE HELPED RAISE YOU, A BEST FRIEND, THAT DOESN'T EVEN QUALIFY.

AND I JUST WONDER, IF SOME OF IT IS JUST THE WAY -- IT'S NOT UNDERSTOOD TO BE SOMETHING THAT YOU NEED TO TAKE TIME FOR, THAT'S PRIVATE, YOU DO THAT ON YOUR OWN TIME.

>> WELL, THINK ABOUT THAT, BECAUSE I DO A LOT OF WORK WITH ORGANIZATIONS AND COMPANIES.

IT TAKES PROBABLY OVER 500 HOURS TO DEAL WITH THE DEATH OF A LOVED ONE.

AND WE THINK, OH, YOU'RE GOING TO NEATLY MAKE A CALL IN YOUR LUNCH HOUR, AND IN THE OLD DAYS, THE THOUGHT WAS, IN THE WORKPLACE, DON'T BRING YOUR PERSONAL LIFE TO WORK.

WELL, THE WORLD HAS GOTTEN COMPLEX, WHEN A LOVED ONE DIES.

WE'VE GOT ESTATES, WE'VE GOT CALLS, WE'VE GOT DEATH CERTIFICATES, ALL THESE THINGS.

THE FUNERAL DOESN'T NEATLY COINCIDE WITH THE DEATH IN THREE DAYS FOR YOUR LEAVE.

SO, ALL OF THIS, IN A MOVEMENT NOW WHERE WE'RE KIND OF SAYING TO FOLKS, BRING YOUR WHOLE SELF TO WORK, BUT WAIT A MINUTE, ISN'T PART OF THE GRIEF MY WHOLE SELF?

SO, THERE'S A LOT OF WORK BEING DONE NOW ON GRIEF IN THE WORKPLACE, EMPLOYERS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MANAGE IT WELL AND BE THERE.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS I TEACH COMPANIES IS, WE'RE ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT EMPLOYEE ENGAGEMENT.

WHEN SOMEONE HAS A DEATH, A LOSS, HOW YOU ENGAGE WITH THEM CREATES SO MUCH LOYALTY.

WE REMEMBER HOW OUR COMPANY WAS THERE FOR US WHEN OUR LOVED ONE DIED.

OR WASN'T THERE FOR US.

>> SEE, I'M SPEAKING TO YOU FROM WASHINGTON, D.C., WHERE I'M SURE YOU'RE FOLLOWING THIS, THE PRESIDENT AND HIS KIND OF DESIGNATED REPRESENTATIVE, ELON MUSK, ONE OF THE WORLD'S RICHEST PEOPLE, IS LAYING PEOPLE OFF.

I MEAN, THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE OVERSEAS WHO ARE DOING ASSIGNMENTS THAT THEY WERE SENT TO BY OUR GOVERNMENT WHO ARE NOW BEING TOLD, OH, ACTUALLY, NEVER MIND, COME HOME, TAKE YOUR KIDS OUT OF SCHOOL, YOU DON'T HAVE A JOB.

I'M JUST SORT OF -- I AM STRUCK BY HOW CONTRARY THAT IS TO WHAT PEOPLE EXPECT FROM THE MODERN WORKPLACE, AND YET, THIS IS BEING CELEBRATED IN SOME QUARTERS.

BUT I'M CURIOUS, JUST FROM YOUR STANDPOINT OF A PERSON WHO IS EXPERT IN THE WAYS IN WHICH HUMAN BEINGS FUNCTION, HOW -- WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THAT?

>> WELL, IT'S CERTAINLY GOING TO CAUSE A LOT OF FOLKS TO FEEL COMPLICATED GRIEF.

BECAUSE ON ONE HAND, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE A COLLECTIVE GRIEF THAT HALF THE COUNTRY, MAYBE EVEN MORE THAN HALF, SAID THEY WANTED CHANGES.

AND THEY WANTED THESE CHANGES TO COME ABOUT.

AND, NOW THAT THE CHANGES ARE COMING ABOUT, IT'S GETTING MORE PERSONAL, IT'S AFFECTING PEOPLE IN OUR LIVES IN WAYS WE DIDN'T THINK.

OH, I KNOW SOMEONE WHO HAS LOST THEIR JOB, ARE WE GOING TO HAVE A POST OFFICE?

AND ALL OF THAT CREATES SO MUCH UNCERTAINTY.

AND GRIEF AND UNCERTAINTY IS A TERRIBLE MIXTURE.

>> TERRIBLE FOR WHAT?

>> I THINK FOR ALL OF US, BECAUSE WE ARE -- WE WANT SAFETY IN OUR WORLD.

WE WANT ORDER.

I MEAN, IF ANYTHING, GRIEF IS DISORDER.

AND WHEN WE HAVE SO MUCH DISORDER IN THE WORLD, IT'S HARD FOR OUR MIND TO MAKE SENSE OF IT.

AND SO, THAT'S KIND OF ALSO WHERE WE STARTED THIS IDEA, THE MIXING OF THIS COLLECTIVE GRIEF THAT'S GOING ON, AND THE INDIVIDUAL LIVES THAT ARE BEING TOUCHED AND SOME OF THEM DESTROYED AND LOST AND TRYING TO FIND OUR WAY.

AND IF YOU'RE NOT EFFECTED, YOU'RE WATCHING IT, AND I WOULD THINK MANY PEOPLE ARE DEALING WITH EVEN WHAT WE CALL VICARIOUS GRIEF AND TRAUMA.

THAT YOU ARE JUST SEEING SO MUCH PAIN IN THE WORLD THESE DAYS.

AND A LOT OF US AREN'T PREPARED FOR IT.

I THINK CERTAINLY THE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE NOT PREPARED FOR THIS KIND OF COLLECTIVE GRIEF WE'RE FEELING AND GOING INTO.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT THESE REGIONAL DISASTERS THAT YOU MAY HAVE SEEN ON TELEVISION OR ON YOUR SOCIAL MEDIA, BUT YOU HAVEN'T EXPERIENCED YOURSELF, LIKE, THE WILDFIRES IN L.A., CERTAINLY TERRIFYING.

BUT EVEN PARTS OF L.A.

WERE NOT EFFECTED.

AND YOU SEE FOR THAT, WE HAVE THE FLOODS, THERE ARE FLOODS IN PARTS OF THE SOUTH, AND THERE IS THIS ONGOING WAR IN UKRAINE, STARTED BY RUSSIA, IT HAS TO BE SAID.

AND WE'RE SEEING THE DEVASTATION THAT THAT HAS BROUGHT, AND I WONDER, EVEN IF YOU AREN'T SORT OF DIRECTLY EFFECTED BY THAT, I WONDER IF YOU FEEL THAT, IF YOU ARE A REASONABLY SENSITIVE PERSON, OR IF YOU ARE ENGAGED WITH THE NEWS IN ANY WAY, WOULD YOU FEEL GRIEF IN RESPONSE TO THAT?

>> YEAH, IT'S INTERESTING.

SOCIAL MEDIA HAS BECOME THE NEW TOWN SQUARE.

AND ONE OF THE CONCEPTS IS, WE NEED YOUR GRIEF WITNESSED.

WE WANT OTHERS TO SEE OUR PAIN.

AND SO, THAT'S WHY YOU'RE LOOKING AT SOCIAL MEDIA THESE DAYS, AND PEOPLE ARE SHOWING YOU THEIR HOUSE THAT'S BEEN DESTROYED, OR THE FLOODS, OR, YOU KNOW, ALL THE DIFFERENT TRAGEDIES THAT ARE HAPPENING, BECAUSE WE WANT OTHERS TO KNOW.

AND WE'RE ALL IN DIFFERENT PLACES.

AND PEOPLE OFTEN DON'T REALIZE, WE EVEN HAVE STAGES AND DISASTERS THAT WE WENT THROUGH THE HEROIC PHASE, WHERE HERE IN LOS ANGELES, THE FIREFIGHTERS WERE THERE AND THEY WERE PUTTING OUT THE FIRES AND DOING THE BEST THEY COULD.

WE'RE NOW IN THE HONEYMOON PERIOD, WHERE, OH THERE'S GOING TO BE FEMA, THERE'S GO FUND ME, THERE'S THIS AND THAT, THERE'S SO MANY THINGS TO HELP.

AND WE'RE GOING TO MOVE INTO THE NEXT PHASE, WHERE WE REALIZE, WAIT, I'M NOT ELIGIBLE FOR THAT?

OH, I REACHED THE MAX ON THAT?

AND AFTER WE REALIZE THE LIMITATIONS, WE'RE NOT GOING TO BUILD BACK AS WELL AND AS QUICKLY AS WE THOUGHT, THAT'S WHEN THE GRIEF IS GOING TO SET IN.

AND THAT HAPPENS ALL AROUND, WHERE THE GRIEF OFTEN COMES WHEN THE WORLD AND THE NEWS HAS MOVED ON.

>> SO, DAVID, YOU KNOW, WE'RE LIVING IN AN INCREASINGLY SECULAR WORLD, A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T CONSIDER THEMSELVES CONNECTED TO FAITH TRADITIONS.

OR THEY'VE MADE A CONSCIOUS CHOICE TO DISENGAGE FROM THEM.

DOES THAT MAKE IT HARDER?

>> IT DOES.

AND IT -- FROM A PRACTICAL SENSE, THAT A LOT OF TIMES YOUR GRIEF SUPPORT IN YOUR COMMUNITY WAS IN YOUR CHURCH, WAS IN YOUR SYNAGOGUE, WAS IN YOUR PLACE OF WORSHIP.

AND SO, WE DON'T HAVE THOSE PLACES TO RELY ON.

ALSO, MANY TIMES, RITUALS THAT WERE IN OUR RELIGION BROUGHT US COMFORT.

AND I THINK WE'RE HAVING TO FIND WAYS TO HAVE RITUALS OUTSIDE OF OUR RELIGION, IF THAT ISN'T RESONATING FOR US.

AND YET, SO MANY PEOPLE DO FIND COMFORT IN THOSE RELIGIOUS ASPECTS AND SPIRITUALITY.

I THINK THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT GATHERING.

NOW, IS INTERESTING THING IS, NOW MANY OF US ARE GATHERING ONLINE, BUT THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT GATHERING AROUND THE GRIEF, BECAUSE THE GRIEF IS PART OF THE LOVE.

AND IT DOES FEEL VERY SACRED, AND IT DOES CONNECT US IN A WAY THAT FEELS SOMEWHAT SPIRITUAL.

>> WE -- WE SAID EARLIER IN THIS CONVERSATION THAT YOU SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE KIND OF ILLITERATE AT GRIEF.

DO YOU EVER WORRY THAT WE GET TAPPED OUT ON GRIEF?

>> I DO WORRY THAT WE GET GRIEF FATIGUE.

YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST, HOW MANY THINGS CAN I DEAL WITH?

AND THEN GOING BACK TO THE INDIVIDUAL, WAIT A MINUTE, I'VE HAD THIS LOSS, AND I WANT TO TELL YOU ABOUT IT, AND YOU'RE LIKE, DAVID, I CAN'T TAKE ANOTHER THING GOING ON.

AND SOME OF US ARE ALREADY EMPTY FROM JUST DEALING WITH COVID AND ALL THE OTHER THINGS IN THE WORLD.

SO, WE'RE COMING TO THIS MOMENT WITH AN EMPTY TANK, HAVING TO DEAL WITH MORE GRIEF FATIGUE.

>> WHAT DO YOU RECOMMEND?

THERE ARE PEOPLE SAYING, I FEEL CHEATED IN A WAY, BECAUSE NO ONE IS SEEING THE PAIN THAT I'M IN, AND I'M GUESSING THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO, MAYBE EVEN THE SAME PERSON, WHO WOULD SAY, WELL, I CAN'T BE PRESENT FOR THIS PERSON, BECAUSE I'M ALREADY DEALING WITH MY OWN STUFF.

AND IT LEAVES EVERYBODY FEELING BRUISED AND UNHEARD.

WHAT -- WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT?

HOW SHOULD WE -- HOW SHOULD WE FACE THIS MOMENT?

>> WELL, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS IS TO REALIZE FIRST OF ALL THE GRIEF IS REAL, WE NEED TO NAME IT, AND IT'S EXHAUSTING.

AND TO KNOW WE'VE GOT GRIEF BRAIN, WE'VE GOT MENTAL EXHAUSTION FROM ALL OF THAT.

THE OTHER THING IS, GRIEF NEEDS DEDICATED TIME.

IT DOESN'T NEED A LOT, BUT IT NEEDS DEDICATED TIME.

CAN WE TAKE FIVE MINUTES JUST TO TALK ABOUT MY DAD?

CAN WE TAKE FIVE MINUTES JUST TO TALK ABOUT, I KNOW YOU DON'T WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON IN THE WORLD, BUT JUST CAN WE FIND THOSE LITTLE POCKETS?

EVEN SOMETIMES FOR OUR OWN GRIEF, CAN WE JUST MAKE OUR SHOWER, MAYBE, IN THE MORNING, OUR SAFE GRIEF SPACE?

THE OTHER THING I TEACH PEOPLE IS TO BE CAREFUL WHERE AND HOW YOU TELL YOUR STORY.

SOME OF US HAVE REALLY NICE, CURATED SOCIAL MEDIA WHERE EVERYONE'S REALLY VALIDATING AND THERE FOR US.

FOR OTHERS, PUTTING YOUR GRIEF OUT ON YOUR SOCIAL MEDIA CAN BE A DANGEROUS THING.

THE OTHER THING IS, YOU HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF OURSELVES DURING THIS TIME AND SET BOUNDARIES.

YOU KNOW, I'M GOING TO ONLY WATCH THESE THREE NEWS SHOWS.

I'M GOING TO REMEMBER TO HAVE FUN.

I'M GOING TO TAKE TIME FOR MYSELF IN THESE WAYS.

AND I THINK THE OTHER THING WE HAVE TO BECOME GOOD AT IS SUPPORTING OTHERS.

THAT MEANS, WHEN YOU TELL ME ABOUT YOUR GRIEF, FOR ME NOT TO RESPOND WITH, WELL, DID YOU HEAR ABOUT THAT GRIEF?

INSTEAD, TO JUST LISTEN TO YOU FOR A FEW MOMENTS.

AND I ALWAYS TELL PEOPLE, DON'T START A SENTENCE WITH "AT LEAST."

WELL, AT LEAST THEY DIED QUICKLY, OR, AT LEAST YOU DON'T HAVE THIS GOING ON.

RATHER TO SEE PEOPLE AND BE WITH THEM.

>> DO YOU FEEL WE CAN -- COULD WE BE BETTER, DO YOU THINK PEOPLE CAN BE BETTER AT THIS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS MY MOST VISITED ON MY OWN WEBSITE IS, LITERALLY, THE BEST AND WORST THINGS TO SAY TO PEOPLE IN GRIEF.

WE DON'T KNOW WHAT TO SAY TO PEOPLE IN GRIEF.

AND WE OFTEN MAKE THE MISTAKE OF, I JUST WON'T SAY NOTHING, BECAUSE I DON'T WANT TO DO IT WRONG.

AND THAT'S REALLY BAD IN ITSELF.

AND HERE'S THE THING.

PEOPLE DON'T NEED FIXING.

BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT BROKEN.

THEY'RE IN GRIEF.

THEY DON'T NEED A SOLUTION.

WE JUST NEED TO SAY, I DON'T HAVE THE RIGHT WORDS, BUT I'M GOING TO BE HERE WITH YOU.

AS YOU WALK THROUGH THE GRIEF OF YOUR HOME, YOUR LOVED ONE, THE WORLD, YOU'RE NOT WALKING ALONE.

AND I ALWAYS TEACH PEOPLE IN GRIEF, I KNOW YOU HAVE THAT ONE PERSON.

YOU TRIED TO TALK TO THEM, IT DIDN'T WORK OUT.

YOU TRIED TO TALK TO YOUR SISTER, YOUR AUNT, YOUR BEST FRIEND, IT DIDN'T WORK OUT.

STOP GOING TO THEM.

WITH YOUR GRIEF.

THEY CAN STILL BE YOUR WONDERFUL SISTER, BUT NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES YOU WALK UP AND DOWN THE AISLE OF A HARDWARE STORE, YOU'LL NEVER FIND MILK.

IF YOUR SISTER IS GRIEF ILLITERATE, YOU NEED TO CHOOSE SOMEONE ELSE WHO SPEAKS GRIEF.

>> WELL, DAVID KESSLER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

AND I ALWAYS TELL PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, OUR TENDENCY IS TO RUN FROM GRIEF, BECAUSE IT'S THE PAIN WE WANT TO RUN FROM.

BUT WHAT WE RUN FROM PER PURSU, AND WHAT WE FACE TRANSFORMS US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> POWERFUL REMINDER THERE ABOUT FACING PAIN AND GRIEF HEAD-ON, AND THE IMPORTANCE OF REACHING OUT TO FAMILY AND FRIENDS, OF COURSE, FOR SUPPORT.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT -- >> I WANT TO ASSURE YOU GUYS AREN'T CRUSHED BY THIS CARPET.

WEIGHS OVER 6,000 POUNDS.

HERE WE GO.

>> ROLLING OUT THE RED CARPET, QUITE LITERALLY, AHEAD OF SUNDAY'S 97th ACADEMY AWARDS.

THIS YEAR'S HOST, CONAN O'BRIEN, HAS BEEN UNFURLING FOR THE CAMERAS, GETTING READY FOR ALL THE GLITTERY STARS AND OSCAR NOMINEES TO STRUT THEIR STUFF.

THE COMEDIAN NOTED THAT WHILE WE CANNOT IGNORE POLITICS AND THE MOMENT WE'RE IN RIGHT NOW, HE WANTS TO, QUOTE, INFUSE THE SHOW WITH POSITIVITY.

AND THAT IS A GOOD THING.

>>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

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