- I had worked the first time with Dick [Avedon] even before I was a model.

I don't even remember how it came about, but he tested me for Revlon, and I remember going just because I wanted to meet him, but I knew in my heart that I didn't want to work.

(Isabella laughing) I had this prejudice, like I guess a lot of people, that I didn't wanna be a model.

I was younger, I must have been 18 or 19, and I thought that I was just going to be a journalist, that sounded much more intelligent.

(Isabella laughing) So then I haven't seen him for a long time, and I haven't heard anything from the sitting, so I can't say that I turned Revlon down.

I think that he not wanted me either.

(Isabella laughing) And 10 years later, 'cause I really became a model at 28, and I first did a series of photo with Bruce Weber for Vogue, and then I was sent to see Bill King, and then when Alex Lieberman saw my photo, he immediately sent me to Avedon, who knew me.

He said, "Well, I photographed you 10 years ago," and nobody thought it was anything, and then I start going with him all the time because by then, once Avedon photographed you, you've got all the cover of Vogue, and you've become what they call today, "a supermodel."

(Isabella laughing) So it was '81, I think, when I start working consistently as a model, mostly with Dick at the beginning.

Well, I was very lucky to work with Dick because beyond his enormous talent as a photographer, he's very articulated, so he explained to me what a model was supposed to do, and I was able to shed all my prejudice against modeling and understood through him what a fantastic job it is.

Especially with him, there is, I would say, very little difference with acting.

I think what you have to do as a model is to exude a feeling.

The fact that you're beautiful, it's a given, they wouldn't hire you.

I mean, it sounds awfully pretentious of me to talk like that, but I mean, they do hire beautiful women, (hands clapping) but you're not their posing pretty, they hate that.

They are there to make sure that you look at your best.

What you have to do is to concentrate, as an actress would do, and exude some sort of feeling, concentrate into something, and I told a story because Dick, I remember I was posing with Dick.

Their photographer worked differently.

Some take many, many pictures.

Some take very little picture, and Dick takes very few photos.

He stands in front of you with the camera, stares at your face like that, and says, "Well, I don't like what you're thinking.

Change your thinking."

"I don't know if that thought is a little bit more interesting."

"Well, try something else," one day he would say.

You know, I was very obedient, so I would change my thoughts, and think of something else.

I was looking at the camera, and one day I said, "He doesn't know what I'm thinking."

So I went back to a thought that I had, which I don't know, was maybe something at home, you know, my children or something, and Dick said to me, "No, no, no, I already told you.

I don't like whatever you're thinking, I don't like that, I don't like that thought.

Change your thought."

He could read...

He doesn't know what I think, but he can see the emotion, and that, to me, was an incredible lesson.

You can see the emotion, and I think, as a model, that's what you have to do.

You have to exude an emotion, and you have to feel that emotion in order for you to exude it, to let it come out.

A lot of work is done beforehand so as you're working, it takes a long time to have your makeup done, your hair done, to try on the different clothes, and then the accessories, and then you pose.

You know, since he often works with a very big camera, you can easily go out of focus, so you don't pose like you would do with an automatic camera where you can really move and do a lot of things, so you have to stay very still because otherwise you go out of focus, so they pose you.

They say, "No, the shoulder a little bit like that, like that."

They really compose you like a sculptor, and then, once you're in that position, that's the moment for you to concentrate.

Now, all the previous work that you do before will all convey an idea.

You know, as you are there, you will look at your hair, and you will look at your makeup, and you look at the jewelry, and you look at the clothes, and little by little, this persona will come to life, so you would have to follow that flow, you know, and go and portray what everybody's contributing, your makeup artist, the hair person, the stylist, to create.

I remember once I had a...

It was a cover of Vogue, and we had a little scarf, and Dick wanted the scarf to stay up, and the scarf, since it was silk, it kept on collapsing, and I had to stay sitting on a little chair, always in the same position, and this would collapse, and it would collapse, and he saw me, that I was starting to perspire, just because of the effort of staying alone, and he said to me, "You know, Isabella, I understand it is very hard, but you know God is in details."

And it's true, you do build up in details what it is an image, and to me, it's even more mysterious.

A lot of people say, "Oh, it's much more interesting to be an actress than being a model," but not for me.

For me, when you do a film, you have a scene, you have the music, you have the story, it's all there to help you portray that person.

When you do a photo, you have one frame, and that frame has to have the emotion, has to have an atmosphere, and it's much more mysterious how one photo works and the other doesn't work, and why is that?

Always sometimes in the same sitting, you know, you take many pictures, and then there is one that has a life, that has a magic.

What does it?

I don't know, is it the moment that I was most concentrated, or is it the way the light hits me, or is it the way, because the color is up?

Who knows what it is, but at a certain point, everything works.

To me, that is always the biggest mystery.

You know, when Avedon was fixing this color, my little scarf one day, it was very revealing to me, it's true.

I mean, even the simplest gesture that we do, you know, if you take your jacket and wear it like that, it so completely gives you a different persona than if you wear it like that.

If you have your shirt is open, or your shirt is closed, you know, it's little details, but it's from that that you build up.

And I think even people that haven't been in fashion, that aren't photographer, aren't models, know that just by the way you wear your jacket, you can be...

It just gives you a hint of a different person.

I think that when we started to work, until I understood, I remember today I understood I needed to act.

I think at the beginning, I thought I just had to be obedient, you know?

So I was very available and very obedient, and I just followed his instruction.

And then, I think all of a sudden as I was waiting for whatever, a collar to stay up, pins to be...

I drift off in a thought.

And he said, "That's interesting, see, that's interesting."

So I was taken back 'cause I thought I got distracted.

I thought, "Oh my God, I made a mistake here.

I'm drifting off."

I said, "Really?

That's interesting."

He said, "Yes, that's interesting, do more of that."

So I went back to the thought, and just didn't and just let myself be free.

So he would direct me, and if I would think of that thought, and that thought would take me, then my head might turn.

And he said, "No, no, bring it back, that head," but you still are in your thought.

You know, so that changed completely the direction.

I don't know if he photographed me before, because before I was just looking at him like this, you know, just obeying.

I don't know if it wasn't anything, he was probably was just photographing a beautiful girl and I don't know, everything else conveyed the emotion, the clothing, the dramatic light, until the day that I understood, just by making a mistake, and he pointed it, just what I thought it was a mistake, and him pointing it out, and encouraging me that way.

I think that I was so lucky to work with people like Dick, and other great photographers at the beginning of my career.

And I attribute the fact that I had one of the longest career in modeling, because of their teaching, really, 'cause I didn't you always, one other, I mean, this is almost awful to admit, but one of the last things that you are concerned when you do a fashion photography is the clothing.

The clothing will always work, because you can always pose and make it work, but it's the photographer, you know, I mean, nowadays with my agent, when he calls me and he says, "This magazine wants to photograph you," I don't ask, "Which clothes are we photographing?"

I always say, "Which is the photographer?"

And that's how you build your career, the quality of your career.

It's a terrible thing to say, I mean, because...

But I really think that the fashion industry used the art of photography, and brought it at their service, you know, and they're using it.

And it's not yet known the commerciality of it is seen by the people, and the artistry of it is belittled by the fact that ultimately we are all there, you know, selling clothes or selling cream or selling makeup, but it's the art in it that makes it, gives you the image, gives you the magic, gives you the dreamy quality.

Yeah, see, to me, that is always very interesting to look at a picture, because I always look at the final photo that has been chosen as you're posing and you're thinking, I've done this photo 12 years ago, so I don't know exactly, I don't remember!

I wish I would see them two weeks later, not to really check if I'm beautiful or not, you always take that, they wouldn't even hire you if they don't think you're beautiful, so you don't have to think about that.

You know, I would just like to know what I did, each photo, to know what is the thing that is effective and what isn't effective.

See, Dick takes very few pictures, this is one, and then immediately changes his... You know, if you want, this is another picture, I mean, it's a different part, it's true.

He takes very few photos, and other photographers that take many, many, many, I've never worked with him taking many, he always did very few.

This one actually was the sitting where I understood that I had to act.

I think you can see it, like if...

I don't know, I mean, it's hard to tell, but even here, I could see that I understood it, because I not only moved my hands, but there is different emotion in my face, you know, it isn't only the angle of my face that changes or my hands that changes position.

I remember the day it happened, we worked four days together on a big spread for American Vogue, and I think in the middle of these two days... (Isabella laughing) It had happened, I'd done two like a puppet and two as an actress.

(Isabella laughing) - [Interviewer] Does he remember that moment too, that journey?

- I think he does, I don't know if he remembers it, but I did tell him several times, and probably with him more than any...

I can't say, you know, he has been such an inspiration to the new generation of photographers, a lot of photographers are looking at his work, you know, as an homage, as an inspiration, and in his work, there is so much emotion and so much glamour, that I think that they've talked to the model of the time and say, "How did Dick direct you, and what was the thing?"

So I think that now they are more photographers than director, like a director, but if you take a photographer like Bruce Weber, he works more like a sculptor.

Bruce, though these photos sometimes are incredibly dynamic, I mean, he's done fantastic photos on sports people, I don't know if they were...

I'm sure he had them posed, and yet it looks like they are just about to leap in a jump, 'cause I've done those photos, I wasn't leaping in a jump, and he just tenses you, and he really directs you like a sculptor, he says, "A little bit more tension on your hand, see, this muscle, tense that one up, 'cause that will create a nice shadow."

He really is like a sculptor, and then you stay there, and you stay in that position for a long time, and it's pretty hard, physically, but the results, even if you stand still, the result might be very dynamic.

- [Interviewer] Does Dick direct you?

- No, I don't think so.

I don't think he never said to me, "I want you to look sad, I want you to look happy, I want you to look surprised."

I think he was more observing me, and all of a sudden taking a glimpse, and encouraging me in that direction, and I think it's the day that I called, I made a mistake by drifting off, that finally an emotion came up, 'cause he understood that I was there just being obedient, you know, just being very careful, looking at him, and just just being attentive, and that was one emotion concentration, and trying to listen, but that's one phase, listening.

(Isabella laughing) And then the moment that I stopped listening to him, no, he never said to me, "Stop listening to me," or "Do this, do that," I think I would have been confused, I wouldn't have understood, and he probably knew that.

He was just more observing me, and also another thing is that, and that works also for film directors, and I think that there is disparity, you know, when they take photos of you, in films, when they make, you know, they make a scene with fashion photographers, and the fashion photographer will say to them, "Oh, you're so beautiful, you're so beautiful," and you'll think, "Oh my God, this is a world of narcissists," but it isn't, it is that, if you feel appreciated, and loved, or liked, I feel more free, I always worked better with the photographer or director that says, "That's good what you've done there, "that's so interesting, that's so..." You know, like an enthusiast, then you do more, you wanna do more than the one that said, "Oh, well, just, oh, oh," you know, then I get so intimidated, and I freeze.

Some people work only that way, Bill King used to be a marvelous photographer, I think only worked...

I think he needed it more, he was a very kind person, but he was very formal, so he didn't know how to be warm, and create a situation where you're warm, and you just start, by friendship, bringing up emotion, so I think he irritated people.

He did everything to irritate people, models mostly, because models you learn a few tricks, you learn what is your best profile, what is the best thing a lot of not very good photographers, they're pretty happy just photographing a pretty girl, so you just stand there, and you know, you just do the faces, and Bill hated that, so I think he had always this big fan and he would spray a little water, so you get water on your face, and then this fan, and the noise, you know, at a certain point, you start looking at him, with a certain anger, that's when he liked it, because you stand, you would do the beauty, because you had, you were...

But it's just a moment where you were still posing, your neck was long, your shoulders were back, you were beautiful, but your eyes were a little bit upset, that's the moment he took the photo, and in fact, if you look at his work, all these women, there is this kind of glamorous anger, you know, they're frightening women, and I think he just got it by irritating them.

- [Interviewer] Was this Bill King?

- Bill King, yes.

- [Interviewer] Did Dick get up to anything?

- I think Dick, because the range of his work is so enormous, I wondered if he would use that technique, if it came necessary to him, but he's a very warm person, or at least he was always very warm to me, and we always got into lots of conversations, and so I never had that experience, you know, I never had that experience, it was all more than compliment, like, oh, it was beautiful, not that stupid, but he's like, very enthusiastic, isn't he?

Like a young man, he was like, (Isabella gasping) A lot of that.

So he kind of also wakes you up, because he has an energy!

(Isabella laughing) Oh, yeah, well, this was, you know, it was very strange.

Dick did a beautiful, beautiful photo of my mother, and he was looking for that photo, because he wanted to photograph me, maybe holding a photo of my mother, but he couldn't find a photo that he did, because the photo that he did, it was really fantastic, and so I think we've used some other photos that he had found.

It's easy when you have to portray either an emotion, or another person, and then when he has to be you, and very personal, it's so much harder, isn't it?

The portraits are actually the hardest to do, I guess.

That really, and I feel that this photo of me holding my mother's photo is more of a portrait, so it's really hard when people say to me, "Just be yourself."

I don't know who myself is, you know, or who am I?

you know, I don't know, I don't know what it is, I don't know what it means, I just am, you know?

But then if you're in front of a camera and everybody stares at you... (Isabella laughing) And then if you are a persona, and you say you're this glamorous lady and you have these clothes that you would never wear, because you wouldn't be able to afford them and have four million dollars of jewelry, then a lot of images come to mind and a lot of...

It's easier, it's easier to be, to become someone else, than being yourself.

- [Interviewer] If you're thinking about the picture itself and you just pick up a book, a fashion photograph, as you were in there, on the edge, Martin Harrison's book, just take this fashion work of a signature, as an image- - Yes, but I recognize, you know, once you're in this job, you recognize the photographer, I don't even have to read, on the side of the page, who has done, you know, I can pick up any Vogue, and say, Avedon, Penn, Bill King, Bruce Weber, Steven Meisel, or Peter Lindbergh, you know, once you are in the business, if they are a good photographer, they would have a very specific signature, but, only very good photographer, have a very specific signature, then there is a group of photographer, that I say, they just photographed a girl, pretty girl, you know, and that they can get to be bland, I mean, they're still appealing, you can still look at it, and say, "Well, how appealing it is," but that kind of photography to me is less interesting, that kind of... See, I'm a model, I'm in it, because of the photography, essentially.

(Isabella laughing) Only lately, I've discovered, that there is an art in the fashion, but again, you know, unfortunately, when it comes down to it, there are very few people...

I mean, it's a terrible thing, it sounds awfully snobbish, but there is a very small group of people, that are of immense quality, you know, and that they are the great masters, but again, you know, once you are in this job, and you love what you do, you recognize, you can open any magazine, and I would recognize an Avedon photo, even sometimes if it's completely new, you know, you can just say, "Could it be Avedon?"

And it is, you know?

because it's just, I don't know, I don't know how to tell, I don't know how I can, um... - [Interviewer] Try to isolate those, I know it's hard, but just go into the making of that signature.

- Well, there is an energy.

First of all, there is atmosphere, in any photo of an excellent photographer, if the photo has to be fashion, or if the photo has to be cosmetic, it's a given that the girl has to be beautiful, so that's a given, you don't even look at it.

(Isabella laughing) If that's the only stage you get to, it's not interesting enough, right?

So, Avedon, you know, you wouldn't stop at that, so that photo would have something more than just a beautiful girl, it would have an energy, it would have a mystery, it would have a whole atmosphere, and in fact, now I'm gonna start talking very abstractly, but you can even kind of, if you want, if you let your mind go, you can also kind of imagine a whole world of this woman, you know, that photo that takes you by the hand, into kind of... Like at the edge of an horizon, to then let you dream about it, that's when you know that there is a great photographer behind, but it might be talking too... (Isabella laughing) An abstract way, but that's the way I feel, it is something that has a life of his own, that all of a sudden I look at a photo, and I say, (Isabella gasping) You know, and a whole atmosphere takes me.

Do you know, I can compare it when sometimes when you read a very good book, and then you snap back to the own reality of your own chair, everybody had that happen, you know, or you come out of a movie theater, and you are so taken by a good performance, or that you feel like the heroine, you feel like Scarlett O'Hara.

(Isabella laughing) You talk a little bit like her, you move a little bit like her, you know?

(Isabella laughing) That's what happens, you know, a good photo would go just beyond good fashion, or cosmetic photo, would just go beyond the beauty of a girl, and it would... And he would have a whole world that it's mysterious, because it's one frame and yet you send something, you don't have quite all the answers, but, (Isabella gasping) You know, there it is, it stimulates your imagination.

You know, there is a body language and for sure he used the body language.

He used the body language, he taught us how to use, in a still photo, the body, to convey an emotion, there is a hip, hands outstretched, away, arms, you know, that shape creates an emotion, like an abstract painting has one line, and, oh, you feel something, same way, I guess, I think it works that way.

- [Interviewer] Do you find yourself in modeling more than in acting, using your body to express emotion more, because you don't have script and dialogue?

- You do, I think you only have that, and in fact now, now I'm in this new thing, you know, I've been mostly a model, I've done photography and lately I've been doing some runways, and I found a whole new world into just walking that corridor and going back, you can walk very differently, you know, you can convey, and you can... See, every designer will have an idea, every good designer will have an idea of, will have a concept, behind their fashion, and your walk can help convey that idea, you know?

If your clothes are very loose and you want your clothes, you know, the designer wants to have a fashion that is very comfortable and very loose, well, your walk should convey that idea, and if instead it's very sexy and very structured and he wants you to be more, you have to walk in a different way, body language, absolutely.

You know, yesterday I was looking at a film, and I was looking at Fred Astaire, now, you would think, I won't be able to step like him, but you know, sometimes there is a...

In fact, I was working today with this new designer, Dolce & Gabbana, and I was saying to them, "You should look at Fred Astaire," it would be a very good idea for the runway, so obviously they're not gonna hire dancers, you know, it's gonna be us, still, but I think it would be... "It's detail," as Avedon said, it's the way you hold your head, your neck.

Is your head back, is your head up?

You know, it changes everything, "God is in details," as he said it and there's still more to be found as I go along.

I say, "Oh, my God, I forgot to... My toes, I can do that with my toes!"

You know, there is so much that you can use, to convey the ideas, the different ideas.

Well, I always think, that fashion and cosmetic are there to give women the armor, you know, to overcome your shyness, I mean, I think that's what didn't make me a model for a long time, 'cause often, you know, you feel like you're a slave of a vision of a man who says, "The woman should be..." You know, the designer to say, "My woman should be that," you just say, "Oh, I don't know who you think you are, you know, I'm me."

But I do think that the clothing and the makeup can be like an armor for a knight, you know, it's what you wear to give yourself a little bit of protection, so that you have a little shield between you and the reality and that shield can also be slightly a portrait of you, it could be the way you wish to be seen, you know, that's already a definition of yourself and that's, you know, one of the level that you use as a model, you don't discard that and just show your raw soul, you don't do that, you know.

When you do modeling, it is also about appearance and allure and so it is also the best of your shield and you always have to have your own emotion, but have dignity, you know, that is very important, I think.

Sometimes when you act, that could be brought down, and you can see raw emotion in acting, modeling, more rarely, you know?

It's still the industry of the shield.