Welcome to "Tell Me More."

I'm Kelly Corrigan.

I'm a writer, a podcaster, and a mom.

This season, number 7, is unlike anything you've seen from us before, because everyone who works on this show is reading the same headlines.

There is so much unsettling news about how people are actually feeling, so, we have recruited the best scientists and researchers to separate fact from fiction and surface a set of practices we can all live by.

Join us for a 10-part conversation on wellness.

How do you get it and how do you keep it?

♪ I'm a big proponent of personal experimentation.

-Mm-hmm.

-What works for you?

What makes you feel amazing?

Kelly, voice-over: This is Dr. Wendy Suzuki.

She is a professor of neuroscience and psychology at NYU, where she is also the Dean of Students.

She wrote a book called "Healthy Brain, Happy Life" and "Good Anxiety: Harnessing the Power of the Most Misunderstood Emotion."

I love the idea of policy because we can challenge policymakers by engaging the youth.

Kelly, voice-over: This is Mahogany L. Browne.

She is the Lincoln Center's first-ever poet in residence, which means she does a lot of great work with a lot of young people.

She curates slam poetry nights, she has written many books, and she is a very effective activist.

The fact that you can take me with you wherever you are moving... Kelly: Yeah.

means that I have a special responsibility to them, too.

Kelly, voice-over: This is Manoush Zomorodi.

She is the host of NPR's "TED Radio Hour," she is a journalist and storyteller who is awfully curious about how technology and business are transforming humanity.

You are hot about the idea of developing a big, fat, fluffy hippocampus.

Wendy: Yes.

Kelly: Why?

Because the hippocampus is critical for our ability to form and retain new long-term memories.

It's really critical for our own personal histories.

If you don't have a hippocampus, you can't remember all the--the joyous and the saddest and the most moving things that have happened in your life through your whole life.

If that hippocampus is diseased... Manoush: Yeah.

Wendy: And gets super-damaged for a variety of different reasons, that does lead to dementia and Alzheimer's disease.

That is why the hippocampus was one of the most precious brain areas that we have, and that's why I want everybody's hippocampus to be as big and fat and fluffy today as it can be.

How do you make it big, fat, and fluffy?

Wendy: I'm so glad you asked... Kelly: Ha ha ha ha!

because every single time you move your body, you are literally flooding your brain with all sorts of neurochemicals.

Um, some of them you've heard of before: dopamine, serotonin, noradrenaline.

That makes you feel good, it makes you feel energized, but it also floods your brain and your hippocampus with growth factors, and the hippocampus is one of only two brain areas that grows brand-new brain cells as an adult, so all of us have the capacity to grow brand-new brain cells.

And so how do you do that?

Move your body.

Kelly: What's your favorite movement?

Mahogany: It would be dancing.

Wendy: Oh, me, too.

Kelly: You have a bum knee right now.

I have a bum knee from dancing.

Manoush: Oh, that's what it's from?

Kelly: That's rotten.

Mahogany: I dropped it like it was hot... Wendy: Oh, ha ha!

and I picked it up like it was tepid.

Didn't work out for me, but I made it here.

Manoush: Oh.

Kelly: Well done.

Can I just say that happened to me?

I had a big birthday, and all I wanted to do was dance.

Mahogany: Yes.

Manoush: And the next day, I crawled to the chiropractor.

He's like, "You know, it just says that you "should be doing more dancing, "not all one night for 6 hours straight, like, maybe we need to spread it out," and I was like, "That's actually a really good point, like, I can't shock my body."

Mahogany: Right, yeah.

But I was wondering, you know, I was a runner... Wendy: Uh-huh.

Manoush: and then-- I never loved it... Wendy: Ah.

but I liked the sweaty feeling.

Wendy: Yeah.

Manoush: I liked the accomplishment, and then I also had an injury.

And I have been a walker.

Wendy: Yeah.

Manoush: And is that enough, I guess, is what I'm wondering.

One of the most recent studies that I did, looking at people that were moderately fit, they exercised two to three times a week, and we said, "OK, you can exercise as much "as you want at a really cool spin studio, just go, go to town, go as much as you want."

And the control group was just stay for your two times, two to three times a week, and what we found is anybody who improved-- increased their exercise got benefits in what?

In mood, in memory, focused attention.

Kelly: Mm.

Wendy: That's dependent on the prefrontal cortex, and the more sweat you put in, the more brain benefit you got out.

Kelly: No law of diminishing return?

Wendy: No, exactly.

Kelly: It's not like, after 30 minutes, you're kind of wasting your time?

No, no, but it starts with simple act of walking.

You have to move so that your brain can work and you can do even more amazing, interesting stories, and you can get into them and you can create them... Mahogany: Yeah.

Wendy: and be the best self that you can be.

They equilibrate the brain with your heart, with your muscles, and some things we know about--cardio I just talked about.

Yes, we know a lot about cardio.

Is it a heart-rate thing?

I wish I could answer that question.

We don't have the data yet for that.

Do we know that that sweat-inducing workout is good and good for your hippocampus?

Yes, we do.

Do we know the optimum amount or even the minimum amount that you need?

That's what I cannot answer.

Mahogany: Mm-hmm.

So, I always start with, "Walking is good."

Walking is good for your brain, and the more you do and the more vigorous you could make it, especially in ways that you enjoy, the better for your brain.

So you work at NPR, you work in audio.

What role does movement play in your work?

Well, I'm always thinking about my listener, and I think my listener is often moving... Kelly: Yeah, totally.

while they're hanging out with me, whether they're washing the dishes or going for a walk or a jog or whatever else, and so I like to think of myself as their companion while they are moving and, I hope, keep them moving, right?

Kelly: Yes.

That's my goal is, like, that they're interested enough that maybe they forget that they're on a walk and they go on a journey with me, and they look down and they've walked 3 miles.

Kelly: Yes, yes.

And that, to me, is the incredible power of audio, but I do think the fact that you can take me with you wherever you are moving... Kelly: Yep.

Manoush: means that I have a special responsibility to them, too.

Wendy: I'm a big proponent of personal experimentation.

Mahogany: Mm-hmm.

Wendy: What works for you?

What makes you feel amazing?

Mahogany: Mm-hmm.

So that's basically the question I've been asking myself since I discovered how powerful movement was for my whole life and for my profession and for my personal life.

I'm sure there are things that you do in your life right now that bring you joy that involve movement, whether it be walking with your, you know, your--your family, with your pets, um, gardening, dancing.

I love dancing.

I love group dancing.

So much fun.

I have a standing desk, and it is hard to stand up all day at your desk and--and work there.

You are using your muscles.

Even that activity of using your leg muscles to do that is--counts so much more counts than people think.

People have this idea that they have to become a triathlete.

"So if I do my marathon, if I do my marathon swim, "if I do my marathon bike ride, that is the only thing that counts."

That is so far from the truth.

Movement, movement is what counts.

That's what my therapist required.

Um, the first two weeks, uh, after my grandmother's passing, and then my sister's untimely death, it just devastated me, and it was one of the first times in my life where I thought, "Oh, I'm not doing anything else.

"I'm just going to sit here and just wait "for this thing to pass because I can't fight it.

It's bigger than me."

And when I talked to the therapist, the first thing she said was, "OK, put your shoes on and get out of the house."

And I said, "No, I don't-- I don't want to."

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

Mahogany: And she said, "I know, and you have to do it anyway" 'cause that is really the effort.

The effort is what kicks some of that, you know, dust up and then the motion and the movement... Wendy: Yeah.

Mahogany: start pumping the blood to the heart, to the brain, and you can start feeling again, even though the feelings are heavy.

Um, you're able to articulate it, rather than just being overwhelmed by it.

What would you say to people in navigating grief and how movement can help them through that navigation?

I have two things to say to that.

Um, going through grief, of loss of a father and a brother in close proximity, the first thing that was so helpful is the realization that that terrible, terrible grief is the flip side of the deep, deep love... Mahogany: Mm-hmm.

Wendy: that I felt for them.

And the day that I realized that, I was working out, and I was working out and it was an online workout, and this-- this instructor said, "With great pain comes great knowledge."

She was talking about working out.

Mahogany: Mm.

And I thought, "Oh, my God.

I had great pain."

Mahogany: Mm-hmm.

And the knowledge is that it's-- it represents the love.

And so I needed both things together to kind of come to that realization and, as anybody knows who's gone through grief, you don't flip a switch.

But that was a really important day in my healing process.

Mahogany: Yes.

So it was both a cognitive realization of the relationship between grief and love... Mahogany: Mm-hmm.

and--and the role of movement that I knew was contributing to that as well.

Mahogany: Yes.

I'm wondering about the walking for the injured.

Wendy: Yeah.

What if you don't have the capability of walking anymore?

Wendy: Yeah.

What might we be able to do instead?

Yeah, I met this woman who started a program in Scotland called the Daily Mile.

She was a primary school instructor, and she noticed that her students didn't look healthy.

And she said, "I'm just going to invite "every single teacher and their class "to go out for 15 minutes a day, no matter what time of year it is."

And you can imagine, at first, everybody was like, "Ugh, I hate to do this," including wheelchair.

Mahogany: Mm-hmm.

You pushed yourself on the wheelchair, crutches, you use your crutches, whatever you can do.

This led to better mood, better performance, and now it's working its way through the Scottish Parliament, making it mandatory.

So, to answer your question, everybody can move unless you are completely, you know, um, in traction in a hospital bed.

Mahogany: Yeah.

Kelly: It seems like there's at least a tie... Wendy: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: between the benefits of exercise and the benefits of antidepressants... Wendy: Yes.

Kelly: on the depressed person.

Wendy: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: And it made me wonder if you could ever imagine a day where physical therapy... Wendy: Mm-hmm.

or a personal trainer would be assigned... Wendy: Yes.

Kelly: to a depressed person in the same way that they would assign a therapist... Wendy: Yes.

Kelly: or a pharmaceutical.

Regular exercise can be as effective as the most commonly used antidepressants to address major depressive disorder.

There are two differences.

One is it takes a little bit longer for the exercise to kick in, whereas if you take the pill, it kicks in faster, and number two, it's easier to slough off your exercise routine... Mahogany: Right.

relative to taking--"I'll remember to take the pill.

It's easy to take my pill."

And that's a big thing because you want it to be effective.

You have to do the exercise to make it effective and, having run exercise studies for many years, it's hard to get people, non-depressed people to continue to take part in my exercise study.

And depression is harder.

I use social media a lot more... Wendy: Yeah.

Kelly: than I use a treadmill, so why aren't I as hooked on this source of dopamine... Wendy: Yeah, yeah.

and serotonin as I am on this source?

Manoush: Hmm, that's an interesting question.

Wendy: Yeah, well, so there's two answers to that.

Answer number one-- the levels of dopamine are different.

So, yes, exercise does increase serotonin and dopamine to a certain amount and to--enough so that you are, uh, significantly less anxious or depressed-feeling after even a 10-minute walk.

It does work.

But all of those engineers have figured out how to draw you in.

They've multiplied all the things that you like.

And is that dopamine hit bigger?

Yes, it is.

My theory has always been because we're spending so much time on screens, often when we are exercising... Wendy: Hmm.

that we aren't paying attention to how we feel afterwards.

I feel like we're disembodied... Wendy: Mm-hmm, yeah.

Manoush: in some way, that we're not like, "Oh, look at me.

"I feel pretty positive.

My back doesn't hurt as much.

I feel like I can concentrate more."

Wendy: Yeah.

Manoush: Whereas, like, what we think about is like, "I should get up, "I should go exercise, I should go do that, I don't want to go do that," you know?

So people are like, "Well, this is easier," and I'm always going to default to easier, but, like, how do we-- It's like the massage effect.

Manoush: Ha!

Kelly: Like, you get a massage and you feel so good in there.

Wendy: Yeah.

And then you get out and there's, like, a ticket on your car and it's just gone.

Wendy: Ha ha ha!

Kelly: So if you're exercising, and then the first thing you do after exercise is, like, hunch over this stupid phone and look at these stupid feeds... Mahogany: Yeah.

then you don't take the minute to notice, "God, I feel good right now."

Manoush: Mm-hmm.

Wendy: Meditation.

That is the act of mindfulness.

"How am I doing?

Oh, I felt good after that" because we had just moved.

Manoush: Mm-hmm.

Wendy: You cannot meditate while scrolling... Manoush: Mm-hmm.

Wendy: at the same time, and that--that is partially why meditation and the breath work-- breath work is the most common-- the oldest form of meditation there is.

That's why it's so powerful to add to an exercise routine.

Those are the two things I added that changed my life.

Kelly: Because it's like neurons that fire together wire together.

Like, if you are noticing how great you feel... Wendy: It's helpful.

Kelly: It helps to reinforce it such that you might do it again tomorrow?

Wendy: Yes, yes.

Mahogany: Hmm.

Can I ask what you think about-- I've been reading a little bit about new research that are mapping certain muscles and organs to sections of the brain.

Peter Strick at the University of Pittsburgh... Wendy: Uh-huh.

Manoush: he was talking about the power of yoga and Pilates to relieve stress.

Wendy: Mm-hmm.

What he was doing was mapping adrenal glands next to our core muscles to the motor cortex and sort of the-- to really simplify it, the sort of conversation going on between all of them... Wendy: Hmm.

which he believes explains why we feel release of stress, that the adrenal glands are moving, the muscles are moving, it's talking to the brain, the brain is talking back to them.

Wendy: Mm.

Manoush: And for me, it was like, "Oh, my God, that explains everything."

I walk into my Pilates class so stressed out... Wendy: Mm-hmm.

and I walk out not caring about anything.

Yoga is a combination of movement, meditation, and breath, and it sounds like he's--he's looking at the physical manipulation... Manoush: Mm-hmm.

of--of the adrenal glands themselves because of those movements that could also be having an effect.

I think there's lots-- lots and lots of things that are going on that are all contributing to--to that good mood we feel right after we come out of class.

Manoush: Yeah.

You work with a lot of kids.

What are you doing to integrate movement such that they might be in a better mood, they might feel more optimistic about their lives and the world they live in?

When I'm working with young people and using literature and literary means to tap into performance poetry, doing that, there's always movement involved.

Wendy: Mm-hmm.

Mahogany: So we have a lot of choreo, and what I found is that when we introduce the movement, rather than them just sitting at the table and reading a poem, they become way more self-conscious.

So I did find a little resistance when it comes to, "OK, I need someone to be a dancer now," and they're like, "I don't dance."

Kelly: Ha ha ha!

"That will not be me, no."

Mahogany: "I'm not dancing."

"I don't dance, Miss Brown."

"No, not going to do it."

But then, if I say, "OK, say your poem," and whatever the poem is, and then I'll do hand movement, and they're like, "Oh, "that does look good.

I can try that now.

"Now that you've shown me that it's possible "and that you don't want me to do a pirouette, I can manage this one."

They found way more investment after I put myself--heh!-- on the chopping block, I was like, "OK, I'm willing to show you "that there's nothing to lose here.

"You don't have to worry about being embarrassed.

"You don't have to worry about not being on point, "but you cannot be the one person who's not moving when everyone else is moving."

So the stakes are raised, but not in a position where they feel like they're going to, I guess, fail.

But so how do we do that so that it's not just in your classroom, but that it's integrated into everything we do?

So we did a project recently called Body Electric, which was based on a study at Columbia that found that gentle movement for 5 minutes every half-hour was the best, most efficient, actually simplest way to offset the harms of sedentary, you know, screen time.

This one woman, I mean, she cut her blood sugar in half.

Kelly: Wow.

Manoush: Her blood pressure was down by 40 points, and it just made me think of all the teachers who are like, "I would love to do this.

I would love that, like, "every half-hour, my class gets up and we walk around the room."

How do we change it so that movement-- everybody's thinking about it all the time?

I think we absolutely have to do it, and we have to do it with data.

Kelly: Which brings you to science, like the power of science and data versus, say, like, the 50,000 people on Instagram who call themselves fit-fluencers... Wendy: Right.

Kelly: 2/3 of whom are really just, like, "slim-spiration people."

Wendy: Ha ha!

You know, they're just talking about diets.

I mean, that's the least motivating reason to exercise, like, that--to me, I mean, the motivation is, "Oh, my God, "could I feel better every day?"

Wendy: Mm-hmm.

"Could I feel better 5 minutes from now?"

Manoush: Right.

Kelly: "Could I feel better before my 4:00 Zoom?"

Manoush: Yeah, yep.

"I'm definitely gonna do it."

And, you know, I'll add the other thing that we found-- when people added these, like, very gentle movement, 5 minutes every half-hour... Wendy: Yeah.

was that their concentration was improved.

Wendy: Mm.

Manoush: And that, I think, really speaks to your work... Wendy: Yes, yes.

this idea that, like, "I wasn't falling asleep at my desk.

I actually kept the thread of what was going on all day."

Wendy: Yeah.

Manoush: And for me, I actually did it in the lab as well.

And despite all the interruptions of adding movement to my day, I rated the quality of my work... Wendy: Mm-hmm.

as 40% better.

I think I love the idea of policy because we can challenge policymakers by engaging the youth, right?

Wendy: Mm-hmm, yeah.

And say-- this is something that I've done with my young writers-- "You need to go interview an elder in your family."

Wendy: Hmm.

Mahogany: And if you say, "You need to interview an elder on a walk, like, that... Manoush: Oh, I love that.

Mahogany: it will mix movement.

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

If you say, "You have to write this poem "and share it, and then choreo be reimagined, "let's introduce you to the dance class and see what happens when you start collaborating."

You start with a group of interested people.

My faculty members that I know would say, "Yeah, I'll help you do that," and "Let's do some trials and let's see what effect that has on the mood of both the professor and the student.

So, in the first episode, we talked about these kind of 3 feeders into well-being.

Wendy: Yeah.

There's nature, your genetic predispositions, such that they are; there's nurture, these early relationships and early environments; and then there's all the choices that you make... Wendy: Yeah.

Kelly: day in and day out.

Wendy: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: And when I said that, Atul Gawande and Lisa Feldman Barrett made this adjustment on that third category, and they said we make choices in context.

Wendy: Mm-hmm.

Kelly: You are now in a position as the Dean of Students at NYU to change the way the environment and the context... Wendy: Hmm, yeah.

feels for these students.

If you could wave a magic wand... Wendy: Yeah.

Kelly: and change the way campuses are set up or the way classes run, what would you recommend?

Wendy: I would love to change the living environment so there's more natural connection.

I would love, um, that every, uh, every time you meet with your professor, it is a walking meeting.

Kelly: Hmm.

It's not sitting down in front of a desk or even on Zoom, which was useful at the time of the pandemic, but we need all of us to start getting up and moving more.

Kelly: Yeah.

You're so oriented toward their wellness.

Mahogany: Yes, which is lost, quite honestly.

Kelly: Yeah.

It's usually "What are the grades?"

you know, "Where are you going next?"

Wendy: Right.

And to have someone in your position say, "No, how do you feel?"

Kelly: Mm-hmm.

And "How can we make you feel better on this journey?"

makes the work feel like love.

Wendy: So, Mo, what role does movement play in your art?

Mahogany: Movement has been especially useful in my work with young people.

Speaking out in public-- we've had that as an icebreaker.

You're going to tell us who you are, where you're from, and then you're going to do a movement that coincides with what that means, and both of them have to go into this, you know, performance space, and at first, it's kind of nasty and chunky and ugly and, "Oh, I don't want to do this and I hate this," and then, by number 5... Wendy: Uh-huh.

Mahogany: of the group, everybody's like, "Oh, I can't wait to do my turn!"

Kelly: Yeah.

Ha ha!

Mahogany: So, you know, the stakes seem low... Wendy: Yeah.

but the buy-in is so good that afterwards, they're like, "OK, we want to do this again."

A thing that I read that you said was that if you were to have a smackdown-- that was your word, Missy.

Wendy: Yes, yeah.

Kelly: A smackdown... Wendy: I remember writing that.

between exercise and breathing... Wendy: Yeah.

Kelly: it would be a tie.

Wendy: It would be a tie.

Mahogany: Wow.

Wendy: Yeah.

Kelly: In terms of its effect on your well-being, your sense of well-being?

Yes, and it's so counterintuitive because breathing, you're--you're still, you're just breathing and movement, you know, you're all over the place, yet, on our physiological systems and on our brains, it's having a similar positive effect of decreasing stress levels, decreasing anxiety levels, making our mood boosts come up, and calming us generally.

And, um, so yes, that-- that smackdown was a tie... [Mahogany chuckles] Kelly: Yeah.

Wendy: in my opinion.

Heh!

So I also saw that one study found that "even just focusing on the way you naturally breathe"... Wendy: Mm.

"when paired with other mindfulness practices "is a well-tolerated treatment option "with comparable effectiveness to a first-line medication for anxiety."

Wendy: There are many studies on the beneficial effects of meditation, including breathing meditation.

Long-term breath meditators can change their brain structure.

Monks, Tibetan monks, have very different brains that have gamma-level, um, frequencies that are off the charts compared to a normal person.

And the breathwork classes that I've started to go to just reinforce that for me, because it takes me through high energy, uh, relaxation just by the patterns of breath.

And, you know, it's, like, 500, a thousand years old, these ideas, um, very, very powerful.

Meditation, and I give a lot of credit to the Dalai Lama, who collaborates with Richard Davidson, an amazing neuroscientist at Madison-Wisconsin, to do these studies.

There are clearly changes that happen with a regular meditation practice, and it makes sense.

Mahogany: Hmm.

You are--you are learning how to focus your brain in a different way.

What brain area is important for that?

The prefrontal cortex.

What brain area changes with regular breathwork and/or meditation?

Your prefrontal cortex.

Ah!

It absolutely makes sense, so, um, there is a lot more data on meditation that backs up this thousand-year practice of how powerful meditation is for our well-being, absolutely.

So everything, every-- it's all in a package.

Sleep... Mahogany: Yes.

Wendy: so important for your brain.

We haven't talked about sleep.

Sleep is so important.

Connections are so important.

Movement is so important.

Having a purpose in your life is so important.

That all leads you to having a beautiful, um, directed, uh, productive life, and that's what we're trying to do.

Kelly: Here are my takeaways from my conversation with Wendy, Manoush, and Mahogany.

If you want better moods, better memory, better focus, walk regularly.

Number 2: Take a minute to notice when you feel good.

Number 3: Stand up, sway.

Gentle movement every 5 minutes, every half-hour, goes a long way toward improving your work product.

Number 4: Every drop of sweat counts.

Number 5: Regular exercise can be as effective as antidepressants.

And number 6: Take care of your hippocampus so it can take care of you.

If you'd like us to send you this list, we're happy to do it.

Just send an email to PBS@kellycorrigan.com.

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