(upbeat music) - Sure, we can have fun with books, we can learn something new.

But ultimately, I think books open not only our minds, books open our hearts, and this is why we need books more than ever.

(upbeat music) - Well, hi, and welcome to the PBS Books Readers Club.

- Today we are thrilled to have Charmaine Wilkerson with us to discuss her captivating new novel, "Good Dirt" and her bestselling debut "Black Cake".

- "Good Dirt", tells the story of Ebby Freeman, who unravels the connection between a childhood tragedy and a cherished family heirloom and her ancestors enduring legacy.

- And since so many of you loved "Black Cake", we'll be asking Charmaine about her debut novel, which captured reader's hearts with its story of family identity and a mysterious inheritance.

- Our PBS Watch Alike this month is "Great Migrations, A People on the Move", the latest docu-series from Henry Louis Gates Jr.

Which is available to stream now on the PBS app.

- Hi, I am Fred Nehad here with Lauren Smith, Princess Weeks, our literary expert and author, and Heather Marie Monia, librarian and PBS books Bational Director.

- We also wanna know what you think, share your thoughts on "Good Dirt" and "Black Cake" in the comments, and let us know what you think about the books we love reading and responding to your comments in the chat, it's so fun.

- Yes.

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So, okay, let's talk about Charmaine Wilkerson's latest book.

We All Love "Black Cake", let's just start there.

Everybody loved that book and her next book does not disappoint.

I loved "Good Dirt".

- No, this was such a thrilling story and all the different ways of the historical fiction, the interpersonal conflict, all of that was just so passionate and just watching Ebby go from this immense personal trauma and still choose to like grow and develop throughout the entire story.

I just found her just to be such a great heroine to follow.

- Yeah.

- Very resilient.

- Yeah.

- I loved it too.

You all know art history is my thing.

So learning about the jar and the stories that go along with the jar, both of the making of the jar and how important it was to the family, but also, you know, the jar was worth over $600,000.

Right, and then understanding the secrets of the jar and also how it was it really, the Jar was a character in the book.

- Yeah.

- Right.

- Old Mo.

- Yeah, old Mo, right.

And I think even the first words of Ebby.

- Yeah.

- Yeah, so let's just reset for a little bit.

So the Freemans are a wealthy black family living in New England and it opens up in the book with this horrible tragedy.

- Yes.

- The Freemans have this jar, right?

This jar that was brought north by their enslaved ancestor, created by their enslaved ancestor.

And it's been in their family through generations.

It is a huge part of their family as they said, tragically, there is a break in and the jar is shattered and much, much worse, the older brother of Ebby is murdered and they don't know who did it.

And it is just this terrible traumatic thing that happens to their family.

And then you flash forward to Ebby as an adult woman and the ways in which that tragedy continues to impact her life.

And also the story of the jar is told throughout the entire novel.

So we start back when it was first created, and you follow her ancestors all the way to what she's dealing with now and to see how the generational trauma is sort of taken from generation to generation, but also the generational resilience that is obviously still in Ebby and her heart and her strength of character.

I think it was just woven together so beautifully.

- And the thing about the break in that was so interesting is that because they are the only affluent black family in the neighborhood, the fact that it happened to them is see as an indictment right on them, rather than a tragedy around a lot of these people.

And I think it's just so interesting because usually when something like that happens, the entire community rallies around you and supports you and uplift you.

And due to the whole racial dynamics, they didn't have that.

And so that also follows her too, is no matter how much Ebby evolves and changes and grows, her trauma is seen as a detriment to who she is, even to her partner.

- Yes.

- In the beginning of the book, it's really sad.

- Well, you very much nailed it.

I love the juxtaposition, both the wealth, but the diversity, the mystery, the love story, loss.

Hope, I also have to say that I got a new puppy during reading of this book.

She also.

- They're a fan.

- Devoured the book, you might say.

- She's just being Miley.

- That's my Miley.

So no, this is a good one.

Well, we have so much to explore with Charmaine Wilkerson, but first, let's talk about how you can join the conversation.

- Sign up for our PBS books e-newsletter at PBSbooks.org/subscribe for exclusive book recommendations, author interviews and more.

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- If you love the PBS books Readers Club, consider supporting your local PBS station and this program.

Visit pbsbooks.org/donate to make a gift.

- Your donation helps keeps programs like this alive and comes with a thank you gift, like an ebook of "Good Dirt" or "Black Cake", or our PBS Book's Readers Club mug.

My weekend is booked, and when you become a member of your local PBS station, you'll get access to PBS Passport, which includes full seasons of incredible shows like "Masterpiece" and "Great Migrations, a people on the move", the latest from filmmaker Dr Henry Louis Gates.

If you enjoy the themes we've been reading about in "Good Dirt", you'll be fascinated by this four part docuseries.

Let's take a look now at "Great Migrations".

(upbeat music) - Migration is freedom to Black America.

- [Speaker] African American migration was one of the most significant demographic transformations in the history of the United States.

- If there's a Black American dream, it's to have the freedom to dream.

- That decision to migrate, if that's not transformative, I don't know what is.

(upbeat music) - And now we turn back to our book picks for this month, "Good Dirt" and "Black Cake".

Let us now welcome in our guest author, Charmaine Wilkerson.

Welcome to the PBS Books Readers Club.

Thank you so much for joining us.

- Hello, hello to everyone.

- We're so glad that you're here.

And we're going to talk about your new book, "Good Dirt", but I also wanna touch first on "Black Cake".

For those who haven't read it yet, it's about two estranged children that inherit from their deceased mother, a black cake with a mysterious history and a voice recording that unravels family secrets, including a Tale of Love, betrayal, and a long lost child.

Charmaine, were you expecting readers to react the way they did to this book?

- Well, I was delighted, I had no expectations whatsoever.

I had hoped that someone would read the book, and I was delighted because people still write to me about stories from their families.

Memories specifically of black cake or rum pudding, as we call it in my family or other recipes.

There are people who have nothing to do with the Caribbean who talk about, you know, memories of their family and how food is a kind of language that we use to share stories, to transmit culture, to share love.

- So important, and both "Black Cake" and "Good Dirt" address how people navigate grief and trauma and in some cases a generational trauma.

How do you approach these universal but very deeply personal themes and specific themes in your storytelling?

- Well, you know, I essentially followed the characters and they sort of spoke to me.

And I began by writing about these two girls living in the Caribbean in the 1950s and 60s who were swimmers.

They were open water swimmers, so they were exceptionally strong.

And the emotional connection that I began with there was the, their idea that everything would go well for them because they were so physically strong, exceptional, had these dreams, and of course things don't go quite so well, but their strength helps them to get through that.

In terms of dealing with generational trauma, you have young people who feel comfortable about themselves, but don't quite fit the expectations or stereotypes or pressures of other people.

And so they struggle.

And this kind of, I don't know if this is really generational trauma, but this kind of pattern repeats itself in the next generation, where you have people who actually feel pretty comfortable with who they are.

They don't question who they believe themselves to be, but they're constantly running up against the expectations, stereotypes and pressures of other people.

- Both novels also delve into questions of identity and heritage.

Why is exploring personal and cultural identity so central to your works?

- I've always been fascinated by the idea of identity, and you know, I'm going to be explicit.

When you are a person of color, especially from the United States, it's easy for people to think that when you are exploring identity, you are thinking of things that are relating to appearance.

And while that does come into play in "Black Cake", really I'm fascinated by the ways in which stories help to shape our identities and experiences, helped to shape our ideas of who we are, our families, our cultures, our world.

And so this came into play in "Black Cake".

It's really natural for me to wonder how the stories that were transmitted from one generation to the other helped to form each character's ideas of who they were and their ideas of their families.

And in fact, when the younger generation, Byron and Benny, the brother and sister, learned that their mother who has passed, had a secret life and a pretty dramatic secret life, they're not thinking, oh wow, isn't that interesting?

Or, oh my, this happened to her.

Their first reaction is a sense of betrayal.

So I'm very interested in how we form ideas of our world and who we are, and then we feel betrayed when something shifts.

- Charmaine "Black Cake" was such a phenomenon.

How did its success influence how you went about writing "Good Dirt"?

- Thank you, well, one of the things that did was got in the way, it was lovely to do interviews and meet with people and do a lot of Zooms because "Black Cake" came out during the Coronavirus Pandemic.

But I found that I would get up in the morning, normally that would be my writing time, my thinking time, and I think, ah, need to respond to an email, oh, I should read this book.

And I found myself drifting away from the pattern that naturally comes to me in terms of writing.

So it took a while longer, I ended up going back to what I'd already written and read and sort of leafing through my research books again and reading over what I'd written and then continuing.

But you know, it was all a joy.

I would say that the most positive impact was a sense of confidence.

You know, each book is different.

There's no guarantee that if one book seems to resonate with people the other will.

But I felt a little more confident in taking chances on the page and making decisions.

- Well, let's dig a little deeper into your new book, "Good Dirt".

For those of you that haven't read it yet.

The book is centered around this incredible jar that was created by Ebby Freeman's enslaved ancestor, and journeyed with their family across generations.

In the beginning of the story, the jar is shattered during a break in, and Evie's brother is tragically murdered.

Not a spoiler, it happens right in the beginning.

The jar in "Good Dirt" serves as a connection between past and present, and its breaking is pivotal.

How did you develop the idea of using an object as both a literal and symbolic anchor for the story?

- Well, you know, as you saw in my previous novel, "Black Cake", I do have a fascination with the idea of mundane objects, everyday objects or rituals that are deeply significant to us emotionally.

So initially I just had the murder scene and in the very first scene I knew that an antique, a family heir illumine antique jar would fall and break.

It was, as I began to research the backstory for the main character, the little girl who witnesses all of this and grows up, Ebby Freeman, it was as I began to research that I began to flesh out really what that heirloom would be, where it would come from, who would make it, and why it would be more significant than just a relic from the past.

But something that was guiding the family as it moved forward.

It was something that was helping them to look to the future.

There's a secret detail in this jar, and it was the research that I did just reading that helped me to grow that detail and strengthen that connection between the past and the present.

- Interesting.

- I'm really compelled by the fact that "Black Cake" was such a specific Caribbean story, and then you have "Good Dirt", which tells this very grounded Black American story.

What was the inspiration to go from one part of the black diaspora to the other, and how did the family conflict and storytelling all reflect that change?

- So I probably am not as intentional as a writer, as intentional a writer as some people are.

You know, they always say that writers fall into two categories.

There are the people who plot everything ahead of time, and then there are the pants, as in we fly by the seat of our pants, and guess which one I am.

So in answer to that, obviously, just as the characters in the Caribbean came to me spontaneously, so did Ebby Freeman, a young woman growing up on the coast of Connecticut in an exclusive neighborhood.

She's born into a very well off family.

She has everything she needs materially, but she's tortured by this family tragedy.

How did that come to me?

That actually came directly from a question that I've asked for years.

In the beginning of my professional life, right after university, I was a television reporter.

I would go into people's homes, literally walk into their lives at the worst possible moment, and I'd go home.

And for years I think about this, I think, how will they move forward when they've lost someone, when they've had a huge disappointment, when they're perplexed by a, you know, health problem.

When they're worried about something like fraud, anything terrible, how do they move forward with sorrow or grief or anger when their most personal and private pain or disappointment has a very public gaze cast on it.

In other words, you suffer this, then there comes a television camera or a newspaper camera and everyone knows about you.

Well, this is what happened to Ebony Freeman.

Now, nowadays we have social media, so people put their own distress out there and share that with other people, but they're still making a choice.

So I was fascinated by this and wondering how you managed to move forward and how do you learn to carry grief and sorrow and anger and still thrive?

And so Ebby just came up spontaneously as this character.

And I saw her as someone living on the coast of Connecticut.

I do have family in New England, and her father had an obsession with the coast because he had had seafarers in his family's past.

And that's where the research began, because I've learned about black sailors in the age of sail, people who were sailing ships up and down and crewing ships in the 18 hundreds, even enslaved sailors.

But some of them were free.

And that's where the history of this family began to grow and balloon into something else.

- That's so amazing.

- Yeah, yeah.

And both "Black Cake" and "Good Dirt" deal with the role of food and heirlooms in storytelling.

Why do you think these elements are so powerful?

And do any of these themes come from your own personal experiences, traditions or family history?

- Well, going back to "Black Cake", my mother made a fantastic rum pudding, Jamaican rum pudding, which many Caribbeans call black cake.

And although I did not set out to write about a black cake when it popped up, I immediately saw its relevance.

Because, you know, we are very ritual oriented, and I'm fascinated in particular with families who have a difficult time tracing their histories.

And that is true of so many people, but especially people who were descended from persons who were brought across the seas from a country they've never seen.

They don't know their family's original names, they don't know what happened to various relatives.

So I think that sometimes everyday objects, a toy, a recipe, a stoneware jar, as in "Good Dirt" can hold enormous significance because it's something you can carry with you and you use it to share a story.

It all goes back to that the idea of stories and the power that they carry and the power they have to shape our identities and influence our relationships.

- As we talk about stories in "Good Dirt", Ebby's journey takes her to France.

What role did the setting in uncovering her past and shaping her future?

and shaping her future?

- Well, without giving away too many spoilers, you know, she basically has reached 29 years of age.

Again, she's had a materially comfortable life, a good education.

She has a job that she is still struggling with finding a way to live with the grief that she must carry in her life.

She had a wonderful love story going, and then things fell apart.

So she decides to run off to France, but just when she's getting relaxed and really enjoying a different setting where no one knows her, she's in a small town, her past catches up with her, and that sort of forces her to recognize in an artificial way that she can't run from her past.

She can't undo who she is.

She has to find a kind of language, an emotional language for living with all that has happened to her because wonderful things have happened to her and her family as well.

So how does she move forward?

And it really goes back to my fascination with that sort of magical part of being a human being.

Somehow people have the ability to live through wars and face trauma and great disappointment and go on to live and love and laugh and do constructive things in society.

But that doesn't mean that they have excised all the sorrow or the grief.

Somehow people learn to live with that.

And it's a question, I don't know how we do it, but it's a little bit of the magic that makes being a human being hopeful, even at the worst of times.

And that's really where that comes from.

- Hopeful, even at the worst of times, Charmaine, the themes of race and class in "Good Dirt" are so rich and so layered.

What drew you to explore them within a setting of a small town in New England?

- Ebby came to me naturally as this person who would have everything she could possibly want, except that she has suffered the worst thing that could happen to someone.

And her parents have lost a son.

And so I thought in this case, I certainly do know Connecticut and New England, and I just thought, what would be a beautiful place to be, a wonderful place to be?

If you loved your home and you wanted to be there for the rest of your life, where could that be?

And I thought of the Connecticut coast, but essentially this was, I think it comes naturally to me.

I'm a person of color.

I thought of a person who would be a person of color and how all of the privilege with which she has lived would be complicated because they're the only black family in their neighborhood.

But also it would complicate that public gaze on that terrible thing that happened to them when she was just 10 years old.

And that is, there would always be kind of a glance, okay, it's that little black girl who went through that.

It's just a shade, you know?

But it speaks to deeper issues.

And you picked up on that thread.

- Yeah, you did too.

- I said that earlier.

I was like, I'm sorry.

- Yeah.

Well, Ebby's high profile romance and the ensuing media frenzy add a modern layer to the story.

How did you approach balancing this contemporary element with the historical weight of the family's past?

- Well, you know, I naturally go back and forth in time when I'm telling stories.

I do like to jump around.

- I love that.

- You did a great job.

- Thank you.

- We loved it.

- Thank you.

So emotionally, I continue to see this you know, as the story of Ebby and her family and their almost obsession with the broken jar, because it breaks on the very same day in which they've lost Baz, you know, her brother and I then did research, I think I mentioned the black seafarers, and then I started researching the kind of, as I was doing the research into the black seafarers and whalers, I started reading about pottery and ceramics and so many other kinds of labor that were performed by enslaved people in America.

You know, we often think of agriculture that was important, that was crucial to the economy.

Enslaved people being used to produce agricultural goods, but also really enslaved people did whatever was needed to be done.

They were wagon makers, they were boaters, they were sailors, they were pottery makers.

And so that part of the story began to grow.

And I would just write a scene, and again, this is typical of the way in which I write.

I don't sit down to write anything in chronological order if it's a news story, sure.

But when it's my own fiction writing, a scene comes to me and I just write and I plunk it into a file.

You know, luckily we have.

- That's fascinating.

- Yeah, and I do that.

Well, you know, it can be a bit of a jar that's running out of control.

You know, remember, things fall apart when he quotes that famous line of poetry, the idea of something spinning and spinning and running out of control.

Sometimes, yeah, yeah.

Sometimes when I'm writing it might feel that way.

But that's what editing is for and that's what revision is for, and that's what having other people to help you finish your book is for.

- So how do you take all those different pieces of the story, and then how do you approach putting that puzzle back together?

- Well, I think everyone's mind works differently, right?

So the way in which my mind works is I just plunk things down and at a certain point I begin to see everything.

It's sort of like a wheel.

You know, the old pie charts they use to teach us things?

- Yeah.

- They look like a pie or they look like a wagon wheel.

That's how I sort of see a story.

And, and so I can see one component and see the other.

- I love that, it's not linear, it's a wheel.

It's a circle, I love that, that's really cool.

- Well, if you think about it this way, we're all sitting together in a virtual room, right?

So we talk today, let's say next month, I'm walking down the street and I run into you, Lauren, I say.

- Oh God, I hope that happens.

Please.

- When you're in Rome.

- Yeah, when I'm in Rome.

- Oh, you're right in Rome.

Okay, we'll arrange it.

But you know, then I say, hey, how are you doing?

And you tell me a little bit of your story, then maybe I see you next year and you tell me something else.

It's all part of the same story.

It's just that I'm getting little bits and bobs.

And then at a certain point I have this wheel, this image of this person named Lauren, a little bit of history, you know what's going on when she's not at work, that sort of thing.

And I formed an image, and that's what a story is like in my head.

But whatever works for the writer is what's important.

That's the way in which it works for me.

- That is fascinating.

- I have a very rotating image of you in my head all the time.

- Thank you, I think that's good.

- No, it's good.

It's always getting more beautiful.

You've touched on this a little bit, but the theme of migration is central to the Freeman's family story.

And how does this resonate with broader ideas about movement and identity, especially in today's world?

I know you've already touched on that, but if you could expand upon it as beautifully as you've already been doing.

- So you mean in "Good Dirt" in terms of migration?

You know,when I think of migration, I think both of voluntary migration and forced migration, right?

So this is a family that there is one ancestor at least who was born to people who were forced to arrive in the Americas.

And then that person makes a daring move.

Again, I don't wanna give too many spoilers, but that person decides to go of his own volition.

And so that triggers a whole series of events.

And what happens is each time you move, you lose something.

But also, each time you arrive, you may gain something, it may be a whole lot of trouble, but you also gain new acquaintances, new knowledge, new experiences.

And so migration, you know, it's certainly in the history of the United States, it's part of so many people, even if you're going from New York to Connecticut for you know, a job or the other way around, or you cross the country to go to university or you marry someone from the north, the Midwest.

So migration is a losing and a gaining.

And that is something I think about a great deal.

Again, what is the story you're telling yourself about who you are and how does that story shift as things change?

How does your identity change, and does it really change?

Or is it sort of like the wheel we talked about?

Does it all add on to who you are?

- Well, your timing couldn't be better as we encourage our book clubbers to stream "Great Migrations, of people on the move", the new four-part docuseries from filmmaker Dr. Henry Louis Gates Jr on the PBS app.

Charmaine, your books delve into deeply emotional and universal themes.

Do you find writing these stories to be cathartic?

Or is it more challenging to engage with such weighty topics?

- Interesting.

You know, so often we use the term catharsis in writing.

I'm not sure it's catharsis, for me, I think of it as exploration.

And I think of it as following a question.

So often I have questions.

It's not that I'm saying I have to get this out of my system unless it's the question.

And so often I don't have the answers.

So with "Good Dirt", Ebby does find a sort of answer for herself towards the end of how does she shift her relationship with what has happened to her so that she can carry it all?

And that's part of the answer.

She has to carry it all.

But there will be scenes, and sometimes I'll find myself shedding tears as I'm writing.

And maybe that is catharsis, maybe it's dredging up some kind of emotion.

But for me, it's questioning the world I live in.

I don't know how else to live.

I'm fascinated by the things that we do.

Sometimes I'm horrified by the things that we do as humans or elated by the things of which we are capable.

And it's more of an exploration of that.

- That's so interesting, I love the idea of like method writing, like method acting, right?

Because you must get wrapped up in the emotions of what's happening.

And it's interesting to think about you, you know, tearing up writing about Ebby and her family.

I think that's just a nice little look in.

Yeah, it is beautiful.

- Well, and it's interesting because we've been talking about emotions and tearing, but I found myself laughing in this book a lot.

- Ebby's funny.

- Very funny and situations, even when we think of Mo as a character.

Can you talk a little bit about, even, I feel Mo was dressed up with hats.

- Mo the Jar just for our.

- I'm sorry, Mo the Jar.

So can you talk a little bit about how you developed Mo as a character, the jar?

And you've talked a little bit about the research.

I studied art history as one of the things in undergrad.

And so I always like to know kind of how you delved into that and where you found the most interesting good sources.

- Well, first of all, I'm glad that you did find something to laugh at because I can get quite dramatic, but I always like to mix in a bit of humor.

And it's essential that we see the playfulness in this family because if they are grieving, it is because they have lost something.

Because they're a family that's full of love and playfulness and they like to joke around.

So the jar was a jar that was crafted by an enslaved person in the American South at a time when there were potteries making highly prized stoneware.

Why, because the dirt was good.

Good dirt.

So, you know, they just had the right conditions for a very special kind of clay.

And so the jar, I knew I wanted the jar to go back to their family somehow.

Originally I'd imagined it as been much, much older, something priceless.

And then as I did the research into the backstory of Ebby's family, I thought, well, no, no, the jar is something from her family.

So I started that research But the bottom line is that as I did the research, a couple of articles jumped out at me.

Some were, I was looking at history, but then more recent articles came up because people were beginning to talk more and more about the role that enslaved people had in crafting jars.

And some of them actually signed the jars.

One in particular is quite famous for having written lines of poetry.

And this was an idea that came to me as something that could help to make that jar special.

Because in the 1800s, certainly before slavery was outlawed nationally, the people who were enslaved were not to be reading or writing or learning to do so.

And people who taught them were also subject to punishment.

So this was a big deal.

So essentially I had this led me to come up with an inscription on the jar.

I won't say anymore, but that inscription is something that makes the jar not just a part of the past, but something that the family keeps wanting to send forward.

They keep wanting to move it forward, and they hold onto that jar.

The story of how the jar ended up in that particular family is part of the backstory, the historic story.

And I think you asked me something else - Just giving the jar a name was like the thing.

- And clever, so clever.

- Thank you, so, yes, so just to quickly comment on that, it's the idea of playfulness because you have children, when we first learn about the jar in the last generation, the generation that loses the jar, they're children and they are children.

Baz, who's almost 15 and Ebby, who's, you know, 10 years old when what is going to happen to them is about to happen.

It's a terrible thing, but they don't know it.

And it's the first day of school and they're goofing around with the jar because since they were young, their father would tell them serious stories about the jar, who made it, how the jar left the American South and ended up in the American North.

Why it was held onto, why it's so important, why many people don't know about the jar, it's because he was trying to communicate something serious, but he was telling them stories and then, you know, this person took the jar this way and that way.

So the children saw it as kind of a cartoon or a movie or a story that the jar was running.

And then the jar ended up on a ship, and then the jar met this woman from a Native American tribe and you know, what was going on.

So the older child, the brother would do caricatures of this jar as a little personality.

And that was incorporated into the story that the older generation told.

In other words, it started as something very serious and solemn, but those children turned it into a living story that was entertaining and fun and therby more meaningful for them.

- Charmaine is one of the wonderful things about the PBS Books Readers Club.

We find ourselves equally fascinated by the books we read and by the authors we meet, which is fantastic.

So I'm curious how you see yourself on your own story wheel.

You've done a lot of great things so far.

Like what has been the most rewarding moment in your writing career so far?

- Oh, the most rewarding moment was publishing my debut novel "Black Cake".

Because I was one of those little girls who loved to read and always wrote stories as children do.

But as I grew older, I sensed that writing my own stories was something I wanted to do, but I did other things like everyone.

And being a journalist is a wonderful way to learn about your community, to meet people, to enjoy the city where you live, for example, to come face to face with some of the more difficult things in life.

Learning to be a witness.

And I'm grateful that I had that opportunity and worked in other areas of communication, but I always felt that I wanted to write my own stories, make stuff up.

Because often I'm convinced that fiction, the stuff we invent married with our gaze on the real world, brings us closer to the truth in life than often other accounts do.

Sometimes it allows us to get closer to things we don't even want to look at in life.

And so that was satisfying for me and it came at a mature age, but I'm happy about it.

- Well, did you always know that you wanted to be that writer?

You said you were a reporter, an empathetic one at that.

Did you always know this was your ultimate goal, to be the kind of writer that you have become?

- I only knew I needed to write.

So just to be clear, writing fiction is one thing.

Being published is another.

Of course, I hoped to publish stories, but it was more that I hoped to find the time to really produce something that I felt commented on the world or would offer something to someone else.

Because you know what, before I was a writer, I was a reader.

I'm just a reader who writes, so of course we want stories.

That's how we communicate with one another.

And yes, Fred, I did sense that, but I did not know that it would be possible.

It took a long time for me to develop the confidence to try.

You have to be daring.

You can't guarantee that anything will work, but you have to try.

- Well, a couple fun questions for you now if you're up for it.

When you read, do you prefer a physical book, an e-reader or an audio book?

- Well, you know, there's nothing like, because we are physical.

Yeah, and we're physical creatures.

We love to hold things and smell the paper and look at the design and I know it's my book, but you know what I mean, it can be any book.

But I do, I am a person of my times and I'm a very busy person who needs to have my hands free.

So I love an audio book.

Because I always.

- Fred.

Fred is our audio book connoisseur.

He loves to listen.

- It is a salvation, salvation for me.

- It really is, and I do a lot of e reading.

The truth is, I probably do more electronic reading than physical because often I'm reading books before they're actually published.

Let's say another author sends a book just before it comes out.

And sometimes I need to get to something quickly.

And when I'm based in Europe, the quickest way is to order something in English, you know, via digital channels.

But audio books are amazing because they're, well, you know, it's like film.

It's another art form.

- It is.

- For sure.

- No, I love when I listen to an audio book and I'm like, okay, I'll get this and the physical copy, next thing you know, I end up with all three.

I also end up with like, my favorite book.

What's your ideal writing setup?

Are you a morning person, night owl, or somewhere in between?

I know you said that your whole setup has even changed now that you are such a noted author.

- Thank you for complimenting me as a noted author, but let's just say keeping busy.

I'm a morning person, I always was a morning person.

I love waking up before the light comes into the sky.

And it just always imbues me with a feeling that here we go again, another day.

Maybe it's a day with good possibilities.

But the point is, you know, I think it's a biological thing too.

I'm a morning person, I used to run marathons.

I would get up and meet friends and we'd run before the light came up.

And when I write, I prefer to write or think or sometimes do the research reading early in the morning.

And I think that's why some people write late at night if they have children.

Because silence is a gift.

- Are people's kids quiet at night?

I don't know.

(people laughing) - You know, well, I struggle because when I'm in Italy, Italians are late night people.

Even if they get the dawn, they're late night, they're up late, the children are up late and I just, I fall asleep over, you know, once I actually had to lean my head against a wall and doze off at a late night dinner because I'm just up early and ready to go.

- Well, speaking of children, what was your favorite book from your own childhood?

- Oh gosh.

Well, you can't ever ask for one.

But, you know, I used to read all the Nancy Drew mysteries, and I love the.

- Oh, I love Nancy.

I had my grandma set.

They were these really old copies.

I love them.

- But I noticed when I think of the absolute favorites, they are the books that in a way are sort of metaphors for the kind of writing I do, stories that would take you across a confine into another world.

So I loved The Secret Garden.

- Oh, that's a good one.

- Francis is my girl.

I love like that, "Little Princess".

- I wanted to pretend that I was in a secret garden constantly, I still do.

- Yes, and I think that's what writing can be like and I did like, even though these tales were more complicated and I did like the tales of the Narnia Chronicles, the CS Lewis.

So I love those, I would say those are my favorites.

But I did, because I think, Lauren, you were asking me about this.

So I did dig through my shelves and find a book that was one of my favorites.

Do I have time to show you?

- Yes, please.

So I moved to Jamaica when I was a little girl, and once I learned to read English and write English, they allowed us to read books in Patois.

And this is Anancy, the stories of Anancy.

- 'Cause I'm also Caribbean, like Anancy is like that's our go-to like storyteller.

Yeah, that's so funny.

- Oh, should I show the, I dunno if you can see it.

See this thing that's Anancy.

Anancy is a spider.

And it's based on, I think the myth of a spider god in West Africa.

The point is that this particular woman, Louise Bennett-Coverley, wrote these stories about Anancy Spider.

And very recently I realized that Anancy was my very first encounter with a flawed character who was lovable because Anancy was a rascal and was always trying to swipe something from someone else or trick someone into doing something he wanted them to do.

And things always went wrong.

So, you know, you'd spend your time laughing at Anancy, but somehow he was lovable.

And I realized that now as an adult, what do we write about?

We write about flawed characters all the time.

And we may just love them all the same.

- I love that.

- Yeah.

- Well, speaking about adult reading, what are some of the best books you've read this past year?

- Oh, I have read so many.

And, you know, for example, "The Heaven and Earth Grocery Store", I love, I really, because I love other people's description of nature.

I really love "North Woods" by Daniel Mason.

I loved a couple of books that are already getting a lot of attention, like Barbara King Solver's "Demon Copperhead" and Safia Sinclair's, "How to say Babylon", which is a book about growing up Rastafari in Jamaica.

And her sort of reckoning with that as a woman.

But if I can leave readers, I'd love to suggest a couple of books that, they're not like mine, but they are books that have a strong historical element that I've read very nascently.

So one of them is a book that I discovered because I took part in a literary festival with this author.

I was not aware of it, it's called "The Pelican Girls".

And it's written by a French author, Julia Malye, who then translated her book into English.

And I read it in English.

Think French women growing up in orphanages or being sprung from jail, who are shipped over from France to Louisiana, to become brides.

And this is fascinating because it's a story with strong, interesting women.

It's an aspect of history I didn't know much about how all of these people came over, you know, to America.

This was in the 1700s and what happened to them.

And another book that I read that also opened my eyes because it talked about something I didn't know.

There are these formally enslaved people who are now free to go, but they're starving, they're desperate.

They find land in the Blue Ridge Mountains and they establish a territory and they declare a kingdom.

They declare themselves a kingdom.

They grow their own food, they do everything.

They take care of one another, so "Happy Land".

But I hadn't really read much about that particular area.

And this is a true story, actually, it's based on a true story though it's fictionalized and there's a present day generation, and the book talks about the consequences.

So that's Dolen Perkins Valdez, who wrote the book, Happy Land.

And then the last one is just completely different, lots of fun, but also very tense.

It's a book called The Martha's Vineyard Beach and Book Club.

And it's about these girls growing up on Martha's Vineyard in Massachusetts at a time of great tension.

They're basically on the coast.

There's a risk of being attacked during World War II.

They have military people training on their territory, and they're just trying to deal with people who have gone off to war and they form a book club.

So it's a mixture of mirth and sisterly loyalty, even among friends, hardship and of course love of books.

- Well, we love a good book club.

(people laughing) - What is the best advice you've ever received, either about writing or about life or cooking?

All of the above.

- Well, really about writing.

I did want to mention, you know, I waited years before I felt confident enough to really work regularly on my own writing.

And I was thinking, oh, but you know, maybe I need another university degree or how do I do that?

And then I need to spend two years, or do I stop what I'm doing?

And a friend of mine who was really much more of a cut to the chase, less neurotic kind of person, just said, why do you need another university degree?

Just work a little less, allowing yourself the money you would've spent on more schooling, work a little less and try to write this thing.

And so I did do that, but that's not a luxury everyone has.

You know, Tony Morrison was raising kids and editing her own writing, you know, while sitting against the washing machine, I think, while also being an editor at a publishing house.

So, you know, whatever works for you.

But in my case, I needed to write less because all I ever did for a living was write and read.

So I needed to withdraw just a bit from that other kind of work.

And the best writing advice was just someone else looking at your life and saying, the answer's right there, just rearrange things.

So just rearrange things.

And I think that if you want to extrapolate that and turn that into more of a life advice, it's that life is give and take.

You know, when people talk about having a lot of opportunity, often it is give and take.

But if you have any kind of opportunity, you need to go for it because it's not a luxury or privilege everyone has.

But I will say this, I'm gonna turn it around and say that if anyone out there is thinking of writing and wondering, oh, I need to write a book and how do I do that?

Just write, just write one word today and 10 words tomorrow and just keep going.

Because no one writes a book like that in a day.

No one runs a marathon suddenly without training and it can be done, but don't make the mistake I did, which was, oh, but I need to be ready and I need to have more another degree and how do I justify it?

Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

- Yeah, it's very hard to tell a Caribbean person work less and don't go and say like, because I'm always just like, maybe I'll just get that PhD.

And it's like, do you really wanna get the PhD?

It's like.

- I do want you to be Dr. Princess.

Dr. Princess.

- It's also the destruction of like, but you know, if you go to school more opportunity and you're like, but is that really what you want?

So I can totally relate to that, that's so funny.

- Oh, well that's great advice.

And finally, what do you hope readers will take away from your books?

- I always like to say that each reader must have their own relationship with a book or a story.

And I want to be very careful not to impose my own ideas.

You know, I've already written a book, read the book.

But I will say that when I write again, I'm always exploring questions that I have in life.

And often I write about people who are nothing like me, who make decisions I don't think I would make.

And that means I'm writing some kind of empathy.

And I think that this is one of the gifts that books give us.

Sure we can have fun with books or we can learn something new.

But ultimately I think books open.

Not only our minds, books open our hearts.

And this is why we need books more than ever.

I think they build empathy.

And so I do hope that in reading, if someone enjoyed a book of mine, that they're feeling some of the empathy that I was striving to have as an individual as I wrote.

- Charmaine, thank you so much for joining us today.

Your stories, your insights, your advice has left such a lasting impression.

We are grateful.

- Thanks to you and thank you for inviting me and thank you for everything that you do.

For those of us who love to read.

- You are so welcome.

- Thank you.

- Well, I could just talk to her all day.

I didn't wanna let her go.

- She was so sweet.

They're so, and there's something about these writers who start off as journalists where they're like built different.

They always have like these multi-layer conversations about empathy and care.

I just think that all the authors that we talk to are great, but it's just this beautiful blending of these two different kind of skills, these lived experiences.

And you could just see all of that being broadened here.

The what she said about grief and how we carry it as people like God, does that get true?

- It's so true, I mean, you think of the stories and how the stories shape our world, but how she really started through journalism and just where she takes us and how she takes us back to learn and forward to experience.

And as you mentioned earlier, so many people will be able to relate to this book because of the modern day and the past.

It's incredible.

And what an honor to get to speak with her.

- So great.

- Well, you know this one I normally listen, but this one I read had to be more intentional, slow myself down.

Aside from my dog eating.

- Miley.

- What did jump out, I think, is what we're all saying is that they call them nowadays defining moments.

That's a way to refer to them.

But in the characters defining moments of, of course, her childhood tragedy and trauma with her brother, and also being left at the altar.

But then Charmaine's defining moments of having empathy for these people when she's working as a reporter.

And just the blend between, again, as I mentioned, the fascination of the story itself and the author.

That's why I love the PBS Books Readers Club.

- Oh, I love it so much too.

And that quote she had about books opening hearts and minds.

- Empathy.

- I love that.

- That's why we do it.

- Oh my goodness.

Well, we have some more great reads in store for you.

Before we reveal our March Book Pick, remember to support your local PBS station at pbsbooks.org/donate.

If you love this PBS books Readers Club, please give what you can because your support helps keep great shows like this one going, if you're watching on Facebook or YouTube, just click the link in the description or comments or visit pbsbooks.org/donate.

- You'll be taken to your local PBS station's donation page where you can find PBS Books swag as our thanks for your donation.

One of the gifts you can receive is an ebook download of any of our featured PBS books titles.

After you donate, you'll receive an email with a link and a special code to download your ebook.

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My Weekend is Booked, very true for us almost every weekend.

Plus, as a member of your PBS station, Plus, as a member of your PBS station, you'll unlock access to PBS Passport and incredible shows like "Great Migrations" from Henry Louis Gates Jr. - And now we are thrilled to announce our March pick.

Heather, will you do the honors, please?

- Of course.

Well, I am so excited to give you our next pick is "The Women" by Kristin Hannah.

- This is a heavy hitter.

This compelling novel follows a young nurse during the Vietnam War as she discovers her strength and faces challenges of a divided America.

The Women is the story of one woman gone to war, but it shines a light on all women who put themselves in harm's way and those who sacrifice and commitment to their country has too often been forgotten.

- This is a novel about deep friendships and bold patriotism.

The Women is a richly drawn story with a memorable heroine whose idealism and courage under fire will come to define an era.

- And will discuss The Women live on March 26th, RSVP now to our Facebook Live event by searching for PBS Books on Facebook and looking under events.

- And sign up for our enewsletter at pbsbooks.org/subscribe.

We have lots of book recs, exclusive interviews, and more delivered right into your inbox.

- And join the PBS Books Readers Club Facebook group to find book recommendations and chat with other book lovers.

- Also subscribe to our YouTube channel to discover an incredible collection of author interviews.

There are so many.

Your favorite author is almost definitely there.

- And our thanks for being part of the PBS Books Readers Club.

We'll see you next month, happy reading.

(upbeat music)