♪ [Music playing] ♪ >> Welcome to the Aaron Harber Show, Your Decision 2022 a special election series exclusively here on PBS12.

Today I'm honored to have 5 guests presenting the positions on three propositions that are 124, 125, and 126, three proposals to change Colorado's alcoholic beverage sales policies.

Joining Me Are Michelle Lynn, Chrissy Farraci, and Curtis Hubbard who are for, one, two or even three of those propositions and Chris Koran and Mat Dinsmore who are against all of them.

I want to thank all of you for joining me and for those of you who have been on the program before, it's great having you back.

I appreciate the fact that you are actually willing to return.

So right now we have a slate up which explains each of the three propositions, 124 which increases allowable liquor store locations, 125 which will allow grocery stores to sell wine and 126 which allows third parties to deliver alcoholic beverages.

Instead of the stores themselves, being the only ones who could deliver, this would allow I guess, would DoorDash and Uber be delivering alcoholic beverages if this passes?

So let's start out with Chrissy, give me your take on why the measures you support should pass.

>> Well thank you for having me today Aaron.

It's a pleasure to be here and I represent the coalition.

We represent the coalition in support of propositions 125 and 126, as you mentioned 125 would allow wine sales in addition to beer cells in grocery stores.

Since 2019, beer was allowed in grocery stores and just would be a simple transition into wine and-- >> By the way if this transition passes is it automatic?

It is automatic but bear in mind that iin 2019 those stores that were licensed and allowed to sell beer have already gone through the public input process at the state and local licensing and permitting and checked all the boxes, cross all the t's, so correct the setbacks will remain and they will transition, but any new providers have to go all the way back through any new licenses they go all the way back through the process.

So there's 38 states in the country that now have the ability to sell beer and wine and we would like to be the 39th state, as we all know the world is a different place since the pandemic, consumer expectation has changed, and so this would just give the consumer, another choice in the market to add more convenience into their lives.

126 as you mentioned is third-party delivery, for 16 years we've had liquor delivery and this is again another simple transition that allows third party platforms DoorDash, UberEats, Instacart and the ability to have a relationship with restaurants and liquor stores that they don't have today and allow them to go through a safe process again through a dual licensing of the state and local to have a license to deliver alcohol delivery by 21-year-old's of course, and I would add that 20, 28 states have the ability for third-party delivery and we would like to be the 28th.

And I think we've proven it's been proven to be safe during the pandemic under the governor's executive orders over the last three years, there's been limited restaurant delivery associated with alcohol.

It is constrained by liability and under executive orders only a restaurant employee and restaurant vehicle can deliver this would open up the market to the potentially 6000 small businesses across the state to have an opportunity to expand business and provide more consumer choice and convenience.

>> All right, so Curtis tell me about 124.

>> Yes thank you for having us here I appreciate the service that you do in allowing all of us from all sides of the issue to come and make a case for voters and for voters to get informed on these issues, we joke in Colorado that whiskey is for drinking water is fighting and I hope at the end of today's broadcast that continues to hold true.

So Colorado's liquor laws are antiquated and complicated and are in need of updating and prop 124 at its core is about simple fairness.

Currently in Colorado, liquor retailers are limited to three licenses, no more than three and there's a type of license that the big-box retailers that have pharmacies can get that allows them to have currently eight so three for liquor retailers and eight for the big-box retailers and pharmacies that number grows over time to 13 to 20 ultimately unlimited licenses so the big-box retailers with pharmacies will be able to grow over time to have unlimited licenses beginning in 2037 while the local retailers are left with a maximum of four, it will increase to four in just a few years here so this is about in prop 124 leveling the playing field for local liquor retailers that want to expand and compete in the marketplace that under current law is unfair to them and should prop 125 pass, we will become increasingly tilted against them in their interest.

>> Okay so Chris do you want to start off and tell my viewers why one or more of these three is a bad idea?

>> Let's start with 124, we will go into numerical order, this isn't brought on by local liquor stores, it's not brought on by the small mom-and-pop's, that's been operating for years under the laws within the state of Colorado this is brought on by a large organization called Total Wine and More, that has close to 270 stores across the United States.

And when you talk about unfair advantage, I have been limited as has Mat to one liquor store and one entity since we put our stores together, and so it's taken me 17 years to get to the inventory levels that I have, in the state of Colorado, you cannot extend credit to a liquor store for product after 30 days.

So that means we continually have to increase our inventory and pay for it and we are a large conglomeration like Total can walk into a market and open up a huge liquor store and in 30 days have it entirely stocked.

So the advantages are more on the side of the large liquor stores being able to come in and open chains.

>> How about 125?

>> 125 is the auto taking a beer license and rolling it into a wine license, it's not just grocery stores, it's convenience stores and gas stations that currently have a license and what needs to be told is these guys started out with 3, 2 so yes they had a license to sell beer forever it seems like.

And in 2016, we came up with a compromise for the local liquor stores and huge conglomerates that we would compromise and allow them to have full strength beer.

So now the way the law is set up if they want a liquor license or additional liquor licenses, they have to purchase within a vicinity of their liquor store which means they have to purchase a liquor license.

>> They have to purchase one or two?

>> Two.

>> So the idea is by creating this condition that if you want to come into the market, you have to buy out 2 small mom-and-pop operations because the assumption is they would suffer from the competition.

>> That's correct, that's an undue advantage of the amount of capital they hold with all the stores, and that will be circumvented and another thing that I think is really important as they are circumventing local municipal control over licensing.

So these are an automatic rollover and everytime there's an expansion or renewal in license or an additional license it goes in front of the municipality to determine what the needs are of that community.

This is automatically big business coming in and rolling over local government saying we know better than you do what your community needs.

>> You're talking about the local liquor licensing board?

>> Right which is usually your local government.

>> How about 126, give me a quick reason why we should not vote for 126.

>> Safety safety safety.

I am background checked, all my employees are trained, I have a license that I cannot only be fined if I break the law, but I can also lose if I break the law continually, these delivery drivers that are working for the DoorDash and UberEats, they are not licensed, they have nothing to lose.

My employee can be fined $500 for the sale of a minor or somebody intoxicated, I can be fined huge on top of that.

These guys have no licensing regulations on that, plus I cannot keep my license unless I keep my people trained.

With safe serve tips.

So it's kids getting online ordering you know, that Uber driver getting there not really care who's he's passing it to or if he's even seeing that person or leaving at the doorstep.

>> Alright, Mat what did Chris leave out?

>> Excuse me, thank you for having us.

I'm going to piggyback so I'm going to be frank here, this is a true David versus Goliath, 18 to 20 million dollars of out of state money, and a coalition of 1650 independent retailers in the state.

>> You're talking about the amount of money being spent to support these propositions.

>> All three propositions, I would agree to disagree, Curtis and I are buds, he works for the devil but we are still buds.

And there's some stuff.

>> We are going to behave, I really do care for Curtis.

>> Actually Curtis has been working for the devil for a few decades.

Especially when he was with the Denver Post.

>> So the half truths and straight up lies are really frustrating here, we can start with unlimited licensing and totally Total Wine and more, sitting US Congressman, him and his brother put $1 million each into this, and a Maryland-based company coming in and is not about little stores trying to expand.

We play by the same set of rules since prohibition and Wilbers can have one store in 2017 and I can have a second after our grand compromise which he helped with in 2016 Senate Bill 197, and agreements were made for runway in for grocers to basically ramp up and for independents to either retire, sell, or adjust.

Here we are six years later and all of those compromises are being thrown out the window.

>> So did you let the camel's nose under the tent Mat?

>> You know looking back, my hindsight is much better.

Pre-2016 total wine and more was not in Colorado because one store does not make sense for them.

>> I should probably jump in because it's not just Total Wine and More supporting prop 124, we have small liquor stores like big fellows out Bennett and Lucky Lou's in Stapleton, larger well-known long-established Colorado brands like Applejack, dozens of craft brewers and other liquor stores across the state, and what Mat says is the CLBA represents 1600 local liquor stores, the reality of it is there's about a dozen that operates CLBA and if you look at their campaign finance filings, three of that dozen essentially are pulling the strings, so to cast this as a big out-of-state guy against all of these local guys is not true.

And in fact one of the other points I would make is Mat and I will agree that liquor stores are a significant player in the success of Colorado's craft producer industry whether that's craft brewers, craft distillers or wineries, and we want to see that continue and prop 124, he mentioned the David and Goliath battle but that's right, but the Goliath is the big-box retailers who will have unlimited licenses in 2037 versus the local retailers who are limited to four.

We've got a 20th century set of liquor laws and it's 21st century out Colorado and we need to adjust it to have a level playing field for them.

>> So Michelle, the show is more than half open and you have not spoken.

>> I know what is going on?

>> I have never seen that happen.

>> I was trying to wait my turn and teach that to my children.

So first of all thank you for having us and here's what was really going on here.

We have 1600 liqour stores, approximately 100 are taking advantage of the delivery service and there's also Drizzly which confuses people because it's actually just a software platform.

They don't do any deliveries themselves, and we also have 5000 small restaurants, and restaurants within Colorado and about less than 300 of those are taking advantage of this delivery alcohol to go delivery service, cause frankly the laws are antiquated Curtis and I will agree on that, the laws are antiquated and for many of the small neighborhood liquor stores they simply cannot afford the overhead, the liquor store that I go to where I buy my wine it's 1000 sq ft, they have one employee, how is that one employee going to go deliver my wine?

He is not, they can't do it and so they have to have a store owned car, well a lot of the stores do not have that, they simply don't have that.

So we have third-party delivery and 29 other states and then you know we have beer.

>> Is third-party delivery using Uber or DoorDash, do you know?

>> Yes.

>> I'm really curious about the concern that you walk into a store and you have to show an ID.

>> Let me address that because these folks talked about safety issues, the truth is that liquor stores are 24 times more likely to sell to someone under age than a grocery store, and Chrissy do you want to talk a little bit about the-- >> How about the idea of depending on an Uber driver?

>> So how this works is and I just want to correct something, under this proposition, it doesn't change the fact that third-party deliveries have to go through the same licensing both state and local, as any other delivery company goes through.

So I want to make that very clear, this is not just an automatic approval they have to submit certification plans for training that are approved by the state, and I've actually witnessed and been involved in DoorDash, it's very robust, frankly they have more to lose as a national company, they could lose their ability to function in the state of Colorado, but let me talk a little bit more about how that works.

>> Let me ask you something, is the certification the company certification or individual drivers certified?

>> So it's both, they submit their plan into the state and it's approved by the state and employees are required to go through training to get their certification to be able to drive just like any alcohol server would have to do, and how that works is when you order I will use DoorDash as an example when you order on DoorDash and you want a bottle wine you enter your drivers license which is verified by a third-party security company, or by Instacart or DoorDash and once the delivery driver drops at the house, they cannot drop and go, they have to scan and verify that ID a second time.

>> I want you to jump in here.

>> So California, which offers third-party delivery, has a 50% failure rate.

Right now, we don't have it here, any retailer that that would like to do it now can own or lease a vehicle, I understand that some people choose not to but that's a personal decision, and the public safety thing is quite frankly the biggest Pandora's box because once it opens Amazon, Uber you name the delivery service does not have a liquor license in the state, they have no skin in the game and quite frankly after talking with my high school aged children, they said dad you know how easy it is to get around?

Point-blank it is a public safety issue, Curtis I apologize I'm trying to behave and let everyone get in, I would come back to all three of these issues.

It is truly small business vs. big business, you brought up Applejack.

>> I'm sorry.

>> You're inaccurate, maybe on 124, I can't speak to 124, 125 126 are supported by small restaurants and alcohol to go was critical to saving our neighborhood restaurants.

These restaurants where we've been proposed to and go for our children's baptism parties, whatever.

They needed this.

And they needed the extension they got the extension and this will extend it permanently and this is not a David and Goliath thing.

This is a liquor store feast, we had three of the most highest revenue years in the history of Colorado.

>> I will disagree with that.

>> Liability, liability is on the third-party deliverer.

So these companies assume all liability they have more to lose than I would argue you.

By the way on safety in the last 3 years since the pandemic, there's been one underage violation.

>> How many LED checks had there been on third-party delivery?

>> LED is a different enforcement division.

>> I'd like to jump in.

My big one is the Colorado Restaurant Association we came out as retailers to help them get delivery to go during the pandemic in Fort Collins we helped shut down any streets we needed to because the bar and restaurant owners are friends, right now the state legislature drinks to go is good till 2025, quite frankly that will probably maintain with restaurants.

>> But do you know who opposed it at the legislature?

You.

>> No we helped get it through, we stood down because-- >> Let him finish.

>> At the end of the day I tell people it's for me a very simple thing you talk about support and small business you can vote no on all three, if you want to support the Amazons and Uber Eats in the DoorDash's and Walmart of the world, then you can vote yes it's very simple it is convenience at what cost.

>> Go ahead Chris, what was your comment?

>> I also think you need understand that with small businesses the craft industry exists in the state of Colorado all the way from production, delivery, to tourism because of the independent liquor store, if somebody is starting up a new brewery, they can walk in and talk to Mat and I, we will give them shelf space, are they going to be able to go to Walmart headquarters and get shelf space once when it's limited because they are not expanding their stores?

>> Hold on, this is the way it is today, there's nothing if these pass, there's nothing to stop a craft brewery from going to a local store and making the same thing.

>> If the local store no longer exists, yes there is.

>> I have to interrupt because I have a statistic from 2016.

2019, well no it was 2016.

The CLBA said that if we put full strength beer in grocery stores, then 700 small liquor stores will close.

Did not come to pass, there are 10 more liquor stores today than in 2018 when full strength beer went into liquor stores.

So look there's room for everybody to thrive.

>> So first of all.

A growth of 10 is not even?

>> It's not 700.

>> Well what we're not taking into account is what has impact financially been on the existing business?

>> I have an answer for that.

>> Oh go ahead.

>> So the folks who took the buyout of the liquor licenses, they each got over $1 million.

>> No I'm talking about existing stores hold on, so my point is that if existing stores have actually lost profit margins, over this period of time then the impact has been severely negative, just saying the number of stores has not changed or changed marginally is not the key measure.

>> But the Colorado liquor enforcement division, has shown that the last 3 years they have had the most revenue of any three years since prohibition.

>> First of all.

>> Let's not hope for another pandemic.

>> I would like to chime in.

2018 or 2019 beer everywhere.

Realizing that most of these people were selling three-two beers seven years ago, it was an overnight conversion to full strength beer, and now you're asking for full strength wine to go automatic conversion.

Nobody saw the pandemic coming.

In Fort Collins we had five stores fail in 2019.

Now 2020 and 2021, we were the recipients and unfortunately our restaurant friends took the brunt of that, and we are still waiting for the dust to settle from the agreement we made in 2016 because quite frankly the pandemic changed the whole world, not just our businesses.

Plus our grocery friends if you look your guys revenue.

>> One of the reasons why a lot of liquor stores did better is people were not going to restaurants and buying alcohol.

>> They have had 100 years at market control and that's not good for the consumer.

>> So I had-- we are almost out of time.

>> I have one last question.

>> So one of the interesting things to me is I'm big on the free market and big on competition so the initial sense is always hey, if there's gonna be competition and you are a little guy, that's the way it goes.

But if you have created a business as a mom-and-pop store and as a small business, with the understanding of the way the rules work, when you created the business.

Isn't it kind of unfair to change those rules and as a result see those operations decrease in failure?

>> So you're singing my tune when we talk about fairness.

What I mentioned earlier with the current laws are unfair.

The big box stores with pharmacies will get to go to unlimited licenses and local liquor stores will be stuck at four.

Prop 124 passes, it's about fairness and creates a level playing field.

>> Curtis, most of the local liquor stores are not concerned.

>> But they have the opportunity and want to compete.

[Cross talk] The reality is, given the decreased margins because of competition, to say that all the little mom-and-pop stores are interested or any significant, hold on are interested in expanding is disingenuous I would make that argument, that's not inaccurate.

>> Let me tell you what David Ross, owner of Big Fellows and Bennett says, if he could have more licenses.

[Cross talk] >> When prop 125 passes.

>> Curtis, I'm serious stop.

Michelle I want to give you a quick 30 seconds.

>> Quick 30 seconds, liquor stores have had a monopoly on this market for 100 years.

This is what monopolies do, they create greed and punish people who are innocent and listen there are 6000 small businesses in Colorado who will benefit they're the back bones of our community, who benefit if 125 and 126 pass, and 67 stores can deliver and more important than the 5000 restaurants that we celebrated our life milestones.

>> Chrissy.

>> You would not say no to McDonald's because there's a local burger shack, right?

Competition works, there's room in our market.

>> Hold on, hold on some municipalities do say no to McDonald's.

>> But that's because they don't want fast food I guess.

>> So 40 seconds left.

No no no you're done.

>> Talk about unfair.

>> Yes it's unfair, it's David versus Goliath when we talk about restaurants obviously Door Dash and Uber Eats will make 30% of each delivery coming out of these restaurants.

>> All right Mat, we got 30 seconds left, 10 for you.

>> Convenience at what cost, if you're putting local people out of business for Walmart and Amazon, again it's do you want to support local and local businesses or support multinational companies?

>> All right, well I want to thank my guests Michelle, Chrissy, Curtis, Chris, Mat, for joining me and make sure you watch all of our shows.

I am Aaron Harper.

Thanks for watching.

We'll see you next time.

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