- Just ahead on "American Black Journal," Disney's "The Lion King" is back at the Detroit Opera House.

We're gonna talk with two of the cast members who hail from South Africa.

Plus we'll revisit civil rights leader Jesse Jackson's last appearance on our show in 2015.

Stay where you are.

"American Black Journal" starts right now.

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(bright music) - Welcome to "American Black Journal."

I'm your host, Stephen Henderson.

"The Lion King" is back in Detroit for its sixth residency at the Detroit Opera House.

The Disney musical has been touring North America for more than 23 years and has played to more than 25 million theatergoers.

The Tony Award-winning show is a coming-of-age story about a young lion in Africa named Simba.

Take a look.

(Rafiki sings in Zulu) (gentle music) (cast singing in Zulu) (fast-paced intense music) (cast singing in Zulu) (exciting music) ♪ He lives in you (Rafiki sings in Zulu) ♪ He lives in me ♪ He watches over ♪ He watches over ♪ Everything we see ♪ Ah ♪ Into the water ♪ Into the truth ♪ In your reflection ♪ He lives in you - "The Lion King" runs through April 5th at the Detroit Opera House.

Joining me now are two of the cast members, Zama Magudulela and Thembelihle Cele.

Welcome to "American Black Journal."

- Thank you, Stephen.

- Now, I think got the names close.

(laughs) - You did.

- But welcome to the show, and welcome to Detroit.

- Yay.

- That is an incredible run that "The Lion King" has had, and the sixth time that it's here in Detroit.

I want to have both of you talk about the characters you play and playing those characters.

I also wanna talk about the story, and I guess the meaning that it has for you guys to play these roles in a play that's set where it is, that draws on the culture that it does.

That's gotta be pretty special too.

Zama, we'll start with you.

- Yes, thank you for welcoming me here.

And yes, I am playing the character called Rafiki.

She is a baboon.

I know there's a variety of questions related to the character, but she plays a shaman in the show.

And she is the only character that really doesn't really interact with all those animals.

However, she is like the glue, you know, she keeps everybody together, so yeah.

My specific joy in playing the character is the fact that I get to speak my language in the show.

- Yeah.

- And it doesn't matter which country.

I get a chance to speak my language and sing in my language, so basically, I feel like I'm really, really out there representing my country altogether.

- Yeah.

- You know, not just any country, Africa altogether, so yeah.

- Right.

And what language is that?

- I speak Zulu.

- Okay.

- Yes.

- And this character, does that character speak Zulu, no matter who's playing the part?

Or is it just because you're able to do that?

- No, I speak Zulu 'cause it's my language.

However, in the script, there's like three languages being used from South Africa, which is Zulu, Xhosa, Sotho.

Those are one of the three of our native languages from South Africa.

- Okay, yeah.

- But me specifically, I speak Zulu.

- Right.

- A mix of all three, but mostly, it's Zulu.

- Yeah.

- You know, there's a part where, in the show, where I get to speak, like, tell a story in my language, it's called the "Click Story."

- Mm-hmm.

- Yes.

You would have to come and see it for you to hear it.

(all laughing) - Yeah.

- But basically for me, representing my country through my language, through my music, it makes it feel very, very special.

- Yeah, yeah.

Let's talk about your character.

- I play the role of Nala.

She is the princess of the pride.

And she becomes... She is forced to grow up quickly, but she also becomes the catalyst for the change, you know, that takes place when Simba comes back to, you know, take his rightful place as the king of the Pride Lands.

And she has a lot to do with that because she goes out to find help, so how that translates to me is, you know, it's one of those things where you, especially as a woman, you know, as young girls are being raised all over to believe, you know, certain things about themselves.

And then you step into a role like this and you get to be strong and to show up bravely and courageously and Nala is exactly that.

You know, I came in thinking, you know, having all of these grand ideas about what I would infuse into the role, but Nala really gives me the permission to be all of those things.

To get to also be in a show that values the authenticity of, you know, the culture that it represents.

I also double as the show's dialect coach as well, so to know that they've invested the energy and the effort into bringing that to the stage as authentically and as truthfully as possible is something that I also take great pride in.

It makes me so happy to be part of something so big and a legacy so rich, but also represent my culture and my country in such a big way.

Because like she said, these are our home languages that are spoken in, you know, a very small corner of, in the southern most tip of the continent, but is being represented and has been seen by millions across the globe.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

- You know, obviously, I've seen "The Lion King," I've seen the movie, and I've seen it here in Detroit at the Opera House in one of the other times that it's been here.

I'm not sure that I knew, or that most people I know knew that it is a South African story, that it is set in that culture.

Obviously it's African, everyone can tell that, but I didn't know that it was specifically South African.

And that changes, I think, for me, the way I think about it.

Yeah.

I wonder for you guys, whether you think people identify enough with it being South African.

(laughs) - Basically, I would say on that one, as much as they've taken the South African, of course, even if they could, they could have used the whole African languages, but it was not possible.

So at this point, using the South African, I feel, despite of different countries, we have common grounds.

We relate culturally.

We might speak different languages, but we are very much connected.

- Mm-hmm.

- There are even some words that we use, like example, the word Ubuntu.

Ubuntu means humanity.

That is kind of available in so many countries in Africa, you know, so we represent that.

That's why I say, as much as it's South African, but it's also African.

- Right, right.

- Mm-hmm.

- You know, it's global in so many ways.

But yeah, we... Like example, if I may make an example with the character that I'm playing is a shaman, which is, she's a leader, she's a healer.

She's a witch doctor, in a way.

So at this point, majority of people in Africa, they have shamans.

You know, in South Africa, there was mostly the female shamans.

Now they are males, but majority, it was well known to be a female shaman, which is why the animation, there's a male version of Rafiki, but in the theater, it's a female because we are representing that part of knowledge related to the shamans.

- Mm.

- You know, so because as this character is playing, is taken, like language-wise, is taken from South Africa, either way, in majority of countries in Africa, we have shamans.

- Mm-hmm.

- You know, so for me, whomever that watches the show would always relate and connect and understand that weight.

As much as this is a language that I don't understand, but we have this, you know.

- Yeah.

- At least that's what I believe one of the connections that have been used for the show.

- Sure.

- I mean, I will say, just to add on to that, like, there are a lot of other influences in the show, and that's just credit to our incredible director who drew on influences from all over the world, really.

There's, you know, parts of Southeast Asia that are represented.

But if we're gonna speak to, like, the continent aspect of it, the makeup is, you know, influenced by the Maasai tribe in Kenya, and, you know, in the Dinka people of modern-day Congo.

Even some of the patterns on the hand-beaded corsets and the puppets that you see on the stage.

It's a lot of influences that ultimately connect and lend to the storytelling and to the story that is "The Lion King."

So a lot of it is accounted for and factored into the show in such a thoughtful way.

Like, if you look at even the costume pieces, no two people wear the same colors or the same shade.

We have different hues of, you know, earth tones and colors, but they're different patterns and they're all very specific to the roles that we play.

- To the role.

- Yeah.

- Yeah.

You know, I think the appeal of the story is that it is universal.

It has some real universal themes.

It's about family, it's about community, it's about... - Strength.

- Courage and strength, right?

- Yeah.

- And whatever culture, I think, you're from, you can kind of find yourself... - Yeah.

- In that story.

- That's why anyone who watches it just kind of, it's been available for as long as we could, like 30 years and above, because it's everybody's story, you know, and the story that, like, you watch it, it's for all ages.

That's another beautiful part of it, of the show.

- Yeah.

- All ages.

Even with the animation movie, you see all people crying.

I cried when I watched it.

(all laughing) So that's how I knew, wait a minute, this is deep.

And then I watched it as a musical.

I was like, wait, I'm still crying.

- Yeah.

- So we all... If I am crying and I'm part of it, imagine the person who came and watched it.

I mean, hello.

- Yeah.

- You know, so it's very much global, you know, and it has connected the world.

That's why it's still making it out there, you know?

And also, of course, it's the way we tell the story because really relating the animation and human beings, being part of that puppetry, being part of that makeup and costumes, you know, that on its own is beautiful.

You know, that on its own.

Then we tell the story behind everything that we are wearing.

- Yeah.

- Then it becomes even deeper, honey, let me tell you.

- I mean, the staging of this is... - Yeah.

- Of course, you know, a huge part of what makes it special and so distinct, really, from the movie.

I wonder, as actors, what that experience is like, to be a part of something that is as kind of richly staged as this is.

- So, because theater is a living, breathing thing, we get to, in real time, at all times, pour in very real aspects of our lives into the show and into the roles that we play.

Because on any given day, you could be experiencing what the story is telling, because we've all been within close proximity to loss, or we've lost something or someone, or have felt lost ourselves in the world.

So whether you're on a journey of self-discovery or figuring something out, or a very real life event, you're bringing that into the story on that given day, and it can touch somebody in the audience differently.

On some days, you're joyful about something and you're bringing that joy.

And that's the beauty of it.

Like, we're a cast of 50-plus international people from very different walks of life.

And so, we all get to come into that space and bring in whatever life experience we're having.

It's a very... It's very much alive at every given moment.

And not only is it multisensory in that, you know, our orchestra and our percussionists who are in the house with us are very much a part of this story.

You know, we have the procession coming in and bringing the story to life, so the audience gets to participate in that as well.

And we get to see that and also feed off of that and react to that.

So, at any given moment, the story is alive.

As soon as that curtain comes up and you hear the call, you know, the story just comes to life, you know?

That's the beautiful part about it for me, is... - And every day, like, every day, it's never the same.

- Yeah, I'll bet.

(laughs) - Because majority of artists, we emotionally connected to the show.

That is why, even if you said you have to still give the story, because at the end of the day, there's somebody different from yesterday who's watching the show, you know?

But more than anything, no one would do the show if they hate theater or if they hate art.

You know, you've gotta be very much passionate because whenever you're delivering the story, it has to make sense.

Anyone who's watching there paid their money there to believe what you're giving out, you know?

But if you're there for money, honey, it shows.

- The novelty wears off really quickly.

- And we've seen that, believe me.

- Yes, yes.

- It does.

- It's here to love it.

- And when you hear from the families, you know, who say, "That was the last piece of anything that my mother saw before she transitioned."

- Oh, my gosh, yes.

- You know, that really... It could be your 10,000th show, but somebody was waiting for a long time for the show to come into town to see that, so that they could have that experience.

- And that reaction from the audience, 'cause it's so nice to know that you gave them what they were looking for, you know, because we hear that from everyone that comes to watch, like backstage or stage door, their comments, we feed off that.

Because imagine you come out and they are sad.

They're like, "So who are you?"

"I was Rafiki."

"Oh, okay."

(all laughing) That would crush you, you know?

But if you know that the response from what they've been watching gave them that joy, that's what keeps you going and you wanna go back the following day.

It's just, yeah.

And also, yeah.

- It's great to have you guys here in Detroit and great to have the show back.

(all laughing) And that's right.

Thanks so much for joining us on "American Black Journal."

- Thank you so much.

- Thrilled to be back in the Motor City.

- Yay.

(Thembelihle laughs) I'm gonna love this city, that's all I know.

(all laughing) - Yes, we want you to love this city.

The nation has said its final goodbyes to civil rights leader, Reverend Jesse Jackson, who died last month at the age of 84.

Memorial services were held in Chicago and South Carolina, celebrating his life and legacy.

Jackson spent his entire adult life advocating for universal human rights and economic justice.

He was a guest on this show in 2015 when his Rainbow PUSH Coalition held its Annual Global Automotive Summit right here in Detroit.

Here's a portion of that conversation.

This is a wonderful program.

The question I have, though, first is, the automotive industry has been around for more than a hundred years.

You would think that by now, we would not really be talking about opportunities for minorities.

- A history of racial discrimination.

We've worked for a long time on this, when the line was really, real hard and dirty work.

We consume, we over-index consumers when it comes to business of the matter.

We got our first... - We buy lots of... - Car dealership in 1966.

That's over 50 years ago.

And yet there's nothing in the industry we cannot do.

The focus right now is on additional jobs, as all the dealerships and suppliers.

And then there is legal and administrative and advertising and marketing, it's a whole range of stuff.

- Yeah.

- And so, we are really indexing far beneath our capacity in the industry, and so what we did... Mercedes-Benz, for example, Mercedes-Benz, 360 dealerships, six African American.

We indexed around 25%.

- Yeah.

- VW, you know, about the same.

So it's global because we'd rather take delegations led by Mr.

John Graves and others to Japan to meet with Honda, Nissan and Toyota.

We have to go to Germany to meet with VW and Mercedes-Benz in light of what has happened with VW because the violation of the law by VW is a big deal to everybody.

- Sure.

- It's not just emissions of soil, of dirt, but it's also omissions of equal opportunities.

We're really not looking for diverse.

We're looking for fair trade.

We're looking for two ways.

We trade with you, trade with us.

- You trade with us.

- With our share of dealerships and franchises and suppliers.

- Do you find that there's a difference between the way the Detroit Three automakers deal with this and the foreign?

You have a bigger challenge with the foreign automakers?

- Well, they're coming up fast now.

Toyota has specifically, but General Motors has taken the lead in so many areas.

When Leon Sullivan was put on the board some years ago, they led the drive for affirmative action.

GM led the drive to get us out of South Africa on conditions that made sense.

And so, there's a sensitivity to GM, Ford and Chrysler.

Ford and Chrysler are no longer American-owned, but there's a legacy of history there.

And it comes in part out of UAW, out of worker sensitivity.

But we must not, because these companies are now producing so much.

But they're going south.

They're not coming back to Detroit, they're going... VW's in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

- Right.

- Toyota's in Plano, Texas and in Mississippi.

VW is going to South Carolina.

They're going to basic right-to-work law states.

And so, as they come under those conditions, we have to reassess how we relate to the growing industry, 'cause once the civil rights barriers came down and bridges were built, then these industries began to go south.

And with that comes a whole new economic agenda.

- It's different, it's different.

It's still different for African Americans.

Opportunity is still different in those states.

- Well, particularly beyond the working on the basic assembly line.

And those are good jobs, by the way.

But beyond that, we have the right to be dealers, and in proportion to our investments.

Dealers and franchises.

But then even the high tech has become such a big dealer.

You can't drive these cars now without having a great sense of technology.

And we spent a lot of time this year tying in Silicon Valley in the automotive industry.

- Yeah.

- And that's the most insensitive industry going.

You would think since it's so... - Silicon Valley.

- Since it's relatively new, it would be much better.

But it's not.

189 board members, 36 white women board members, three Blacks.

- Is that right?

- And one Latino.

In the C-suites, 360, three blacks, one Latino.

- [Stephen] Wow.

- Board members at Apple has zero, Facebook zero.

That's changing now because HP now put on four Black board members last week.

And Apple now has put on Jim Bell on their board.

So, we're fighting to get board positions in C-suites, but also to get STEM education to our children, to get for young boys and young girls.

We have a tech center at the Rainbow PUSH in Chicago.

We want a thousand churches.

We use some of that empty unused Sunday school space, we can teach children the apps, codes and financial literacy and marketing.

- And that's where it started.

I mean, they have gotta be up on those things just to compete for any job.

- Which they can do, because we don't have a talent deficit.

- [Stephen] Right.

- It's an opportunity deficit.

There's nothing we cannot do.

Every time I think about the automotive industry, the most sensitive job in the whole industry, the designer.

The chief designer in the world is Ed Welburn.

- Mm-hmm, right.

- In the whole world.

Ed at GM, he sits at a desk every day and looks at six continents.

And he has to pass on every design.

He grew up in the South, you know, went to Howard University, learned his art, his form.

But we don't see that face in the auto industry.

Women are running manufacturing plants and we're trying to get them to expose what we can do, 'cause if we can be president of the United States, we can be president of auto companies.

- Right.

(laughs) The contraction in the auto industry has gotta also have set us back in terms of this.

And not just in terms of... - Those who had legacy kept inside track, you know.

Effort and excellence means a lot.

But access and inheritance means more.

- [Stephen] Yeah.

- It's why we struggle to keep on to our one shop, which is almost cost-ineffective now.

Some of them kept their multiple dealerships.

So, we had maybe seven to 900 dealerships 10 years ago.

Now selling around 246.

- Yeah.

- So it was a radical drop in dealership.

Not in purchasing, but in dealerships and suppliers.

- But in ownership.

- Yeah, that's right.

- Yeah.

You've had these summits several times.

Talk about some of the things that you've learned from having people just sit and talk about this.

What are the people's reactions?

What's the movement that we're seeing?

- Well, it's the infrastructure, you know, when you have people like Vivian Picard and Jim Farmer... - Yeah.

- At GM Motors.

Their sensitivity is a... They have direct access to Mary Barra.

- Right.

- That's a big deal, you know.

They're not just fronting, they're really representing.

We're learning having access matters at the highest levels.

- Yeah.

- Because when you leave out Blacks and browns, you're leaving out, what, market, money, talent, location, and growth.

So you're not just doing us a favor doing it.

Inclusion leads to growth.

Then with growth, everybody wins.

- Everybody makes more money, sure.

- So we're over-indexing, but it's like a one-eyed quarterback.

You just can't see the field.

You can't see the opportunities unless... And it seems, ironically, some of the foreign companies have come in.

They've seen the market more clearly than the historical companies.

They've seen this through the lens of historical race.

- [Stephen] Sure.

- And they cannot see the marketplace.

So a company like Toyota's gonna go shot to number one.

- [Stephen] Right.

- They don't have the same historical barriers that these companies have.

- Yeah.

Uh... - I think... Make your point.

- Yeah, go ahead.

So, one of the things that's really interesting to me about this work is, when I think about you and I think of footage that I see of you from the '60s and the things that you were doing in the '60s and '70s, fighting for legal equality and progress in this nation, that's really different from the kind of work that you have to do now, which is about opening up economic doors.

- We're free, but not equal.

- That'll do it for us this week.

You can find out more about our guests at americanblackjournal.org, and you can connect with us any time on social media.

Take care, and we'll see you next time.

(bright music) - [MASCO Announcer] Across our MASCO Family of Companies, our goal is to deliver better living possibilities and make positive changes in the neighborhoods where we live, work, and do business.

MASCO, a Michigan company since 1929.

- [Announcer] Support also provided by the Cynthia and Edsel Ford Fund for Journalism at Detroit PBS.

- [DTE Announcer] The DTE Foundation is a proud sponsor of Detroit PBS.

Through our giving, we are committed to meeting the needs of the communities we serve statewide to help ensure a bright and thriving future for all.

Learn more at dtefoundation.com.

- [Announcer] Also brought to you by Nissan Foundation, and viewers like you.

Thank you.

(peaceful piano music)