>> Sarah: WHEN WE LEARN ABOUT THE PAST, WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT THE EXTRAORDINARY ACHIEVEMENTS OF SO MANY ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS, WHETHER IT'S THE PYRAMIDS, WHETHER IT'S THIS AMAZING ART, BY YOU KNOW, GROUNDING US AND GIVING US THAT SENSE OF PERSPECTIVE, I REALLY WANTED TO GIVE PEOPLE SOME HOPE.

>> Bonnie: HELLO, I'M BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO b CONTRARY,b ARCHAEOLOGY.

I'M JOINED BY SARAH PARCAK AN ARCHAEOLOGIST, EGYPTOLOGIST AND PROFESSOR AT THE UNIVERSITY OF ALABAMA AT BIRMINGHAM.

SHE'S KNOWN FOR HER WORK USING SATELLITES TO IDENTIFY ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITES.

AND SHE NOW HAS A NEW BOOK OUT ARCHAEOLOGY FROM SPACE: HOW THE FUTURE SHAPES OUR PAST.

WELCOME, SARAH, TO b CONTRARY.b.

>> Sarah: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

A JOY TO HAVE YOU HERE.

LET'S START WITH HOW DID YOU GET INTERESTED IN ARCHAEOLOGY?

>> Bonnie: >> Sarah: I'VE BEEN INTERESTED EVER SINCE I WAS A YOUNG CHILD, YOU KNOW, A A CHILD OF THE '80S.

THIS IS PRE CABLE, PRE INTERNET WHERE YOU COULD WATCH COOL YOUTUBE VIDEOS.

SO, I THINK IT WAS PARTLY NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC, AND PARTLY THE INDIANA JONES MOVIE THAT GOT ME INTERESTED IN ANCIENT EGYPT.

>> Bonnie: AND SPEAKING OF INDIANA JONES, YOU ARE REFERRED TO AS THE SATELLITE GIRL AND THE FEMALE INDIANA JONES.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THAT?

>> Sarah: WELL, I MEAN, SATELLITE GIRL IS PROBLEMATIC ON SO MANY LEVELS.

FORTUNATELY, THAT WAS WHEN I WAS YOUNGER IN MY IN MY CAREER.

AND YOU KNOW, INDIANA JONES NOW IS ALSO PROBLEMATIC.

BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT WAS A WAY THAT MY GENERATION GOT INTERESTED IN ARCHAEOLOGY, I THINK WE NEED A NEW INDIANA JONES MOVIE STARRING A WOMAN IDEALLY A WOMAN OF COLOR.

BUT YOU KNOW, I THINK ANYTHING YOU CAN DO TO GET KIDS IN YOUR CLASSES AND GET KIDS EXCITED ABOUT THE WORK YOU'RE DOING?

WELL, THAT'S A WIN.

>> Bonnie: NOW YOU SAY THERE MAY BE AS MANY AS 50 MILLION SITES WORLDWIDE THAT HAVE NOT BEEN DISCOVERED.

I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW THERE WERE PEOPLE ON THE PLANET, THAT MANY PEOPLE ON THE PLANET BACK IN, YOU KNOW, 2000 BC?

HOW COULD THEY HAVE NOT BEEN DISCOVERED BY NOW.

>> Sarah: SO POPULATION EXPERTS HAVE ESTIMATED THAT POTENTIALLY, YOU KNOW, 100 PLUS BILLION PEOPLE HAVE LIVED THROUGHOUT HUMAN HISTORY.

AND YOU HAVE TO THINK THAT THEY'RE LIVING ON AN AREA OF OVER 40 MILLION SQUARE KILOMETERS FOR 10S OF THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

AND THEN WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE DENSITY OF ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITES, AND COUNTRIES LIKE THE UK THAT HAPPENED, WHILE MAPS, YOU CAN KIND OF COME UP WITH THESE ESTIMATES.

AND THESE AREN'T, AREN'T ALL SITES LIKE, YOU KNOW, THE PYRAMIDS OF GIZA, OR MAJOR SITES THAT YOU MIGHT SEE IN CENTRAL AMERICA.

THIS IS EVERYTHING FROM TINY LITTLE CAMPSITES, ALL THE WAY UP TO MAJOR SETTLEMENTS.

SO IT'S JUST A ROUGH ESTIMATE.

I'M HAPPY TO BE PROVED WRONG.

BUT ACTUALLY, I THINK I MAY HAVE UNDERESTIMATED .

>> Bonnie: WHAT'S IT LIKE BEING A WOMAN IN YOUR FIELD, BECAUSE SCIENCE GENERALLY IS, IS SORT OF THE LAST FRONTIER AND SO CERTAINLY, A CONFLUENCE, AS YOU HAVE PUT TOGETHER OF TECH SCIENCE AS WELL AS ARCHAEOLOGY SHOULD BE, I WOULD IMAGINE, YOU'RE ONE OF THE FEW WOMEN RIGHT, >> Sarah: THERE ARE NOT AS MANY WOMEN IN POSITIONS THAT YOU KNOW, WHERE YOU'RE A FULL PROFESSOR, CERTAINLY WORKING IN A COUNTRY LIKE EGYPT, THERE ARE NOT A LOT OF FEMALE PROJECT DIRECTORS.

BUT I CERTAINLY HAVE BEEN HELPED ALONG THE WAY BY A LOT OF OTHER FEMALE ACADEMICS.

THEY'RE EXTRAORDINARY YOUNG WOMEN THAT ARE COMING UP THROUGH THE RANKS AND GRAD SCHOOL AND JUNIOR PROFESSORS.

SO I TRIED TO, YOU KNOW, WOMEN WHO'VE BROKEN CEILINGS BEFORE ME, I'M TRYING TO HELP CLEAR THE WAY AS MICHELLE OBAMA SAID, YOU KNOW, AS WE RISE, WE BRING OTHERS WITH US, IT'S NOT EASY, IT'S STILL ISN'T EASY T O BE A WOMAN IN ACADEMIA.

BUT I'M AT THE POINT IN MY CAREER, WHERE I DON'T CARE WHAT MEN THINK OF ME ANYMORE.

SO I JUST KEEP TRYING TO SHINININND ALSO, YOU KNOW, I REALLY DO MY BEST TO PROMOTE THE WORK, THE EXTRAORDINARY WORK THAT MY OTHER FEMALE COLLEAGUES ARE DOING.

>> Bonnie: HOW DO YOU DO THAT?

>> Sarah: SO CERTAINLY, WHENEVER I GIVE A PUBLIC PRESENTATION, I TALK ABOUT THE WORK THAT MY COLLEAGUES ARE DOING, I'M VERY ACTIVE ON SOCIAL MEDIA, ON FACEBOOK, ON TWITTER, SO I'M CONSTANTLY RE TWEETING, TRYING TO, YOU KNOW, SHOW PEOPLE THE WORK THEY'RE DOING ALSO IN MY BOOK, I REALLY TRIED TO DO BOTH A DIVERSITY AND GENDER AUDIT.

SO I MADE SURE TO KEEP AS MANY INDIGENOUS AND FEMALE SCHOLARS AS POSSIBLE WHEN I WAS TALKING ABOUT OTHER PEOPLE'S WORK.

>> Bonnie: THERE WERE SOME ANCIENT SOCIETIES RUN BY WOMEN.

I KNOW THAT BECAUSE WE WERE TRYING TO GET FUNDING FOR MANY YEARS, AND IT WAS MANY YEARS AGO, ABOUT REAL WOMEN WHO ACTUALLY EXISTED AND RULED SOME ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS AND MADE AN IMPACT SOMEHOW, BUT FOR EXAMPLE, WU ZETIAN IN CHINA, OR HATSHEPSUT IN EGYPT, SUPPOSEDLY ONE OF MAYBE POTENTIALLY THREE WOMEN WHO RULED SOME SAY DISGUISED AS MEN ON THE THRONE, WHEN THERE WAS A WOMAN IN CHARGE OF THESE ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS.

DID WOMEN DO ANY BETTER>> Sarah: I THINK THEY CERTAINLY HAD CHALLENGES, YOU KNOW, HATSHEPSUT, WHEN WHEN SHE RULED EGYPT, SHE PRESENTED AS A MAN AND CERTAINLY... >> Bonnie: DO WE KNOW THAT FOR A FACT, BECAUSE I'M, AND TELL ME HOW WE KNOW THAT FOR FACT, BECAUSE WHEN WE WERE LOOKING INTO THIS, AS I SAY, A GOOD 20 YEARS AGO, IT THERE WAS A DEBATE GOING ON .

>> Sarah: RIGHT, AND IT'S STILL DEBATED IN IN EGYPTOLOGY.

TO WHAT EXTENT WAS SHE FEMINIZED AND CERTAINLY WHEN YOU LOOK AT HER STATUES, THEY ARE MORE GRACEFUL.

WITH MY EYE, BECAUSE I'VE SEEN A LOT OF THESE STATUES, YOU CAN YOU CAN SEE THAT IT IS A WOMAN BUT SHE WORE CERTAINLY THE REGALIA OF A MALE RULER, AND YOU KNOW, WAS SHE WENT, HOW WAS SHE SUPPOSED TO DIE OF NATURAL CAUSES, THIS IS ALL SORT OF DRESSED FOR THE SCHOLARS MILL.

BUT LOOK AT THE EXTRAORDINARY MONUMENTS THAT SHE BUILT, YOU KNOW, DARRYL BOCKARIE, THIS BEAUTIFUL TEMPLE, WHERE SHE CELEBRATES THIS VOYAGE TO PUNCH WHICH IS QUITE AN ACHIEVEMENT GOING BACK 3000 4000 5000 YEARS.

SO YOU KNOW, JUST LIKE TODAY, THE DEBATES ARE RAGING, HOW MUCH CAN WOMEN BE FEMININE WHEN THEY'RE IN POSITIONS OF POWER?

I SAY, YOU KNOW, GIVE US 10,000 YEARS, AND WE'LL SEE IF WE'VE DONE AS WELL OR BETTER THAN THE MEN HAVE FOR THE LAST 10,000.

>> Bonnie: AND AS I RECALL, SHE ELEVATED THE POSITION OF PRIESTESSES IN HER RELIGION, CORRECT?

>> Sarah: SO, SO WE KNOW CERTAINLY IN IN THE NEW KINGDOM, THERE, THERE WAS A GROUP OF WOMEN CALLED THE CHANCES OF A MOON.

SO WE DO KNOW OF, YOU KNOW, OF WOMEN THAT WERE IN CHARGE, OR CERTAINLY HAD IMPORTANT ROLES AS SINGERS AND TEMPLES OF WOMEN IN ANCIENT EGYPT WERE KNOWN AS MISTRESSES OF THE HOUSE, UNLESS WE THINK, YOU KNOW, THESE WOMEN WERE JUST HOUSEBOUND, IT DIDN'T DO ANYTHING.

MANY WOMEN WERE IN CHARGE OF HOUSEHOLD ACCOUNTS.

AND IN SOME CASES, WE HAVE INSCRIPTIONS OR LETTERS.

AND WE KNOW THAT WOMEN WERE LITERATE, AND THEY WERE HELPING TO RUN THE HOUSEHOLD BUSINESSES OR THE BUSINESSES OF THEIR FAMILIES WHILE THEIR HUSBANDS WERE GONE.

>> Bonnie: AND WHILE WE'RE THERE FOR A SECOND, SARAH, LET'S PAUSE BECAUSE IN 1994, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER CARI STEIN AND I WERE IN EGYPT COVERING THE U.N. CONFERENCE ON POPULATION AND DEVELOPMENT AND WHILE WE WERE THERE, WE WENT DOWN TO DR. O'BARRY, AND WE DID A FEATURE ON HATSHEPSUT.

HERE'S A PIECE OF IT .

>> HERE IN THE VALLEY OF THE KINGS, A PHARAOHS POWER WAS MEASURED BY THE SIZE OF THE MONUMENTS HE LEFT BEHIND.

AMONG THE MOST STUNNING THE TEMPLE THE YEAR OF BATTERY, MEANING THE SUBLIME OF THE SUBLIMES.

IT WAS BUILT BY THE FEMALE PHARAOH HATSHEPSUT.

HATSHEPSUT WAS BORN A PRINCESS IN 1484 BC.

WHEN HER FATHER DIED ONE OF HER HALF BROTHERS THUTMOSE II AND BECAME PHARAOH, AS WAS CUSTOMARY AMONG ROYALTY AT THE TIME THUTMOSE II MARRIED HIS HALF SISTER HATSHEPSUT, THE TWO RULED JOINTLY, A TESTAMENT TO HATSHEPSUTS POWER, BUT THEY NEVER PRODUCED A SON.

SO WHEN THUTMOSE II DIED EIGHT YEARS INTO THEIR MARRIAGE POWER PASSED TO HIS SON BY A CONCUBINE THUTMOSE IIL WAS TOO YOUNG TO RULE.

SO ORIGINALLY, HATSHEPSUT TOOK POWER AS REGENT, BUT NOT CONTENT TO WARM THE THRONE FOR SOMEONE ELSE.

SHE USURPED POWER FOR HERSELF AND BECAME PHARAOH.

AT FIRST SHE'S DEPICTED IN ROYAL DRESS APPEARING AS A WOMAN.

LATER SHE WEARS THE FULL PHAROHONIC REGALIA INCLUDING THE FALSE BEARD.

THAT WAS ONE OF THE SYMBOLS OF DIVINE KINGSHIP, AND IS REFERRED TO AS HER MAJESTY THE KING.

HATSHEPSUT TOOK POWER AT ONE OF THE PEAK PERIODS OF WEALTH AND POWER IN PHAOROHONIC EGYPT'S HISTORY.

FOR IMPERIAL POWER, HER COUNTRY'S WEALTH AND INCREDIBLE CULTURAL AND ARTISTIC ACHIEVEMENTS HAVE LED TO HER DESCRIPTION BY SOME HISTORIANS AS TOWERING ABOVE THE ANCIENT WORLD AS ITS MOST OUTSTANDING FEMALE PERSONALITY.

SHE DID NOT WANT TO BE REMEMBERED FOR HER MILITARY ACHIEVEMENTS.

CLEARLY THERE WERE MILITARY CAMPAIGNS DURING HER 22 YEAR RULE, BUT SHE WANTED TO BE REMEMBERED AS SOMEONE WHO OPENED UP NEW TRADE ROUTES TO OTHER PARTS OF AFRICA.

THIS SCENE DEPICTS HER SEA EXPEDITION TO THE LAND THEN CALLED PUNT WHICH IS PRESENT DAY SOMALIA.

EGYPTOLOGIST BETSY BRYANT OF JOHNS HOPKINS UNIVERSITY SAYS THIS TRIP WAS SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE IT WAS THE FIRST EVER SEA VOYAGE TO THAT PART OF AFRICA FROM EGYPT.

>> Betsy: THEY WERE ACCESSING GOLD DIRECTLY FROM NUBIANS WHO WERE PAINTING FOR IT, AND THE EGYPTIANS WERE COLLECTING IF THEY ARE AT A TIME WHEN THEY WERE ONLY BEGINNING THEIR OWN CONQUEST AND CONTROL OF THE NUBIAN GOLD MINES >> Bonnie: ELSEWHERE AT DRL BOCKARIE HIEROGLYPHICS TELL OF HATSHEPSUTS MINING EXPEDITIONS NORTH TO SINAI FOR TURQUOISE AND SOUTH TO US ONE FOR GRANITE TO BUILD OBELISKS, BUT SHE ALSO WANTED TO BE REMEMBERED FOR HER ELEVATION OF THE STATUS OF SOME EGYPTIAN WOMEN.

SCHOLARS SAY THE NUMBER OF ELITE WOMEN INVOLVED IN THE PRESTIGIOUS AND EXTREMELY POWERFUL CULT SERVICE SPIKED UP DURING HER REIGN.

SMALL FIGURES IN PROCESSION PORTRAY WOMEN CLAPPING, DOING ACROBATICS AND PLAYING MUSICAL INSTRUMENTS.

>>> OKAY, WE'RE BACK.

NOW SARAH, PLEASE TELL ME WU ZETIAN, ARE YOU FAMILIAR WITH HER IN CHINA?

>> Sarah: A LITTLE BIT.

YES.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

HER REPUTATION WAS THAT SHE MURDERED OR HAD MURDERED MOST OF HER RELATIVES, WHOM SHE FEARED WE'RE TRYING TO CHALLENGE HER FOR HER POWER.

SHE'S STARTED AS A CONCUBINE, AS MANY OF THESE WOMEN DID THEN, GOT IN WITH A GENERAL AND HE DITCHED HIS WIFE OR WHATEVER THEY DID, AND MARRIED HER AND THEN WHEN HE DIED, SHE ROSE TO POWER.

SO I WOULD ASSUME A WOMAN LIKE THAT RUNNING, THE GOVERNMENT RUNNING THE CIVILIZATION WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN PARTICULARLY GOOD TO WOMEN.

RIGHT?

>> Sarah: I MEAN, WHEN YOU WHEN YOU LOOK AT OTHER WOMEN IN HISTORY, YOU KNOW, THE THE FAMED CLEOPATRA, WHO WE KNOW THROUGH, A LOT OF PEOPLE KNOW HER MAINLY AS SHE WAS PORTRAYED BY ELIZABETH TAYLOR IN THE MOVIE IN THE 1960S.

A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE THAT SHE WAS AN EXTRAORDINARILY BRILLIANT WOMAN, SHE SPOKE MULTIPLE LANGUAGES.

SHE APPARENTLY WAS NOT AS GOOD LOOKING.

SHE HAD A HOOK TO NOSE SHE HAD VERY DISTINCTIVE FACIAL FEATURES.

BUT HER CHARISMA AND HER BRILLIANCE WOULD WIN OVER A ROOM.

I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF PARALLELS ONE CAN DRAW BETWEEN SOMEONE LIKE CLEOPATRA AND SAY SOMEONE LIKE HILLARY CLINTON.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY NEED TO DO IN POSITIONS OF POWER, AND WOMEN CAN BE EXTRAORDINARILY SHREWD.

AND IT'S AMAZING HOW WE INTERPRET FEMALE RULERS LIKE CLEOPATRA THROUGH THE LENS OF HOW WE'RE THINKING ABOUT WOMEN TODAY.

>> Bonnie: ARE THERE OTHER WOMEN RULERS WHO STAND OUT FOR YOU?

I HAVEN'T MENTIONED?

>> Sarah: BOY.

YOU KNOW, I KNOW IN ANCIENT EGYPT, TOWARDS THE END OF THE OLD KINGDOM, THERE WAS A FEMALE QUEEN, CERTAINLY DURING THE NEW KINGDOM THERE GREAT AGE OF THEM IMPERIALISM, AND LATER THERE WERE VERY POWERFUL WOMEN WHO, YOU KNOW, HELPED NECESSARILY ROLL UP BUT CERTAINLY HAD PRETTY SIGNIFICANT POSITIONS OF POWER.

SO THE QUEEN NEFERTITI, ALONGSIDE HER HUSBAND ARE NOT AND SHE WAS A VERY POWERFUL WOMAN, AND YOU CAN REALLY GET THAT SENSE BY LOOKING AT HER SCULPTURE.

>> Bonnie: NOW, TELL ME ABOUT -- LET'S GO TO EGYPT, WHICH IS YOUR, YOUR PERSONAL FAVORITE.

HOW MANY MORE SITES -- I MEAN, THAT'S A COUNTRY THAT'S BEEN DUG UP FAIRLY CONSISTENTLY SINCE KING TUT'S TOMB WAS DISCOVERED, AND CERTAINLY BEFORE THAT, BY TOMB RAIDERS.

WHAT MADE TUT SO FAMOUS, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, WAS NOT THAT HE WAS A PARTICULARLY POWERFUL KING.

HE DIDN'T LIVE THAT LONG.

BUT BECAUSE HIS TOMB WAS FOUND INTACT, AND MANY OF THE OTHERS IN THE VALLEY OF THE KINGS AND QUEENS, THE VALLEY OF THE DEAD HAD BEEN RAIDED ALREADY.

HOW MUCH MORE IS DOWN THERE?

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT HASN'T BEEN RAIDED THAT YOU HAVE FOUND ON SATELLITE?

>> Sarah: SO FIRST OF ALL, A LOT OF PEOPLE THINK KING TUT'S TOMB WAS INTACT.

AND IT WASN'T, >> Bonnie: IT WASN'T?

THANK YOU.

>> Sarah: SO WHEN HOWARD CARTER EXCAVATED THE TOMB AFTER THE DISCOVERY IN 1922, ALMOST 100 YEARS AGO, HE FOUND HAND SCOOP MARKS IN THE CANOPIC JARS.

SO PEOPLE HAD GONE INTO THE TOMB, PROBABLY AT THE BURIAL PARTY, YOU CAN'T STEAL A GOLD AMULET WITH THE NAME TUT ON IT, BECAUSE SOMEONE'S GOING TO KNOW YOU'VE STOLEN IT.

BUT THEY STOLE THE PERFUME AND CREAMS THAT WERE IN THE TOMB.

AND THOSE HANDPRINTS WERE THERE THREE AND A HALF THOUSAND YEARS LATER, WHICH IS KIND OF AMAZING.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU CALCULATE THE AMOUNT OF AREA OF SITES THAT'S BEEN EXCAVATED, I HAVE THIS ISN'T A PEER REVIEWED PUBLICATION.

NO ONE'S DISPUTED IT YET, I CALCULATED THAT EVEN IN THE EGYPTIAN DELTA, WE'VE ONLY EXCAVATED ONE 1,000TH OF 1% OF THE SITES.

AND I'VE GOT THE MATH TO PROVE IT.

AND WHEN YOU ADD ON TOP OF THAT, ALL THE OTHER ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITES THAT WE STILL HAVE TO FIND WE SEE BIG ANNOUNCEMENTS OF DISCOVERIES ALL THE TIME BY THE MINISTRY OF ANTIQUITIES, I THINK WE CAN SAFELY SAY THAT IN EGYPT, WE'VE EXCAVATED LESS THAN 1% OF THE SITES .

>> Bonnie: THAT IS SO AMAZING WITH ALL THE ARCHAEOLOGISTS WHO'VE BEEN CRAWLING ALL OVER THAT COUNTRY FOR SUCH A LONG TIME.

DO YOU SEE ANY OF THEM ON YOUR EXPLORER PROGRAM THAT YOU'VE PUT TOGETHER?

>> Sarah: YES.

SO WITH THE SURVEY WORK THAT WE'VE BEEN DOING ACROSS EGYPT, WITH THE WORK MY COLLEAGUES HAVE BEEN DOING, YOU KNOW, WE SEE NEW SITES ALL THE TIME.

AND IT'S, YOU KNOW, NOT NECESSARILY JUST JUST EGYPT.

SO IN THE PLATFORM THAT I RUN AT WORK, WE'VE DONE WORK IN FRONT, PERU, IT'S A CITIZEN SCIENCE PLATFORM, AND WE FOUND OVER 19,000 SITES THERE.

SO I THINK EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO BE FINDING THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF SITES.

BUT CERTAINLY IN EGYPT, IT SEEMS LIKE EVERY WEEK, THERE'S A NEW TOMB OR A NEW PYRAMID THAT MY COLLEAGUES IN THE MINISTRY OF ANTIQUITIES HAVE DISCOVERED.

>> Bonnie: AND WHEN YOU SEE THEM FROM SPACE, AS YOU DO ON YOUR PROGRAM, AND I KNOW YOU INVITE OTHER PEOPLE TO GO TO YOUR SITE, BECAUSE THE MORE EYEBALLS THERE ARE OUT THERE LOOKING FOR THE YOU KNOW, TO COVER MILLIONS OF SQUARE MILES, THE MORE THE MORE QUICKLY, SITES WILL BE DISCOVERED.

BUT WHAT DO YOU, HOW DO YOU DO IT?

I MEAN, IS IT JUST DOTS WHERE THEY HAD BEEN DUG OUT ALREADY OOR?

OR WHAT?

>> Sarah: SO SO FROM FROM SPACE, THERE ARE TWO WAYS THAT YOU CAN IDENTIFY ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITES.

SO IN ARCHAEOLOGY, WE GO FROM THE KNOWN TO THE UNKNOWN.

SO WE HAVE DATABASES OF LOTS OF KNOWN SITES AND FEATURES.

AND IT'S NOT LIKE YOU KNOW, YOU'RE YOU'RE AT A DOCTOR'S OFFICE, AND THEY'RE TELLING YOU THAT A SQUIRRELLY BLOB IS WHATEVER THEY'RE TELLING YOU IT IS, THESE THINGS ARE REALLY DISTINCT.

FOR THE MOST PART, YOU'RE SEEING SQUARES, RECTANGLES, SHAPES THAT AREN'T FOUND IN NATURE, RIGHT.

SO YOU SEE A SQUARE, IT'S THE SIZE, IT'S JUST THE SHAPE AT THIS ORIENTATION.

OH, IT LOOKS LIKE THESE 20 KNOWN EXAMPLES.

ALSO, A LOT OF THESE THINGS ARE BURIED BENEATH THE GROUND.

AND WHAT WE'RE DOING IS WE'RE LOOKING FOR SUBTLE CHEMICAL DIFFERENCES ON THE SURFACE, THAT ARE CAUSED BY THE DEGRADING OF THE BUILDINGS, WHETHER THEY'RE MY BRICK OR STONE.

AND SO THINK OF IT ALMOST LIKE A SPACE BASED CAT SCAN, WHERE WE'RE SEEING THESE SUBTLE DIFFERENCES IN PARTS OF THE LIGHT SPECTRUM THAT WE CAN'T SEE WITH OUR HUMAN EYES.

SO BOTH ITS SHAPE RECOGNITION, AND USING THE CHEMICAL SIGNATURE OF THE SOILS.

>> Bonnie: AND WHAT HOW DO YOU EXPECT TO FIND LIKE ANOTHER DRL BARI OR THE RAMSES THE SECOND TOMB THAT THEY DUG UP FROM THE NILE AND PUT ON TOP OF THE HILL WHEN THEY WERE ABOUT TO DAM THE NILE?

I MEAN, MAJOR MONUMENTS LIKE THAT.

SO FOR THE MOST PART, THE SITES THAT.

>> Sarah: WE MAP AND FIND, YOU KNOW, ITS FOUNDATIONS, YOU SITES, LIKE HUGE PYRAMIDS, YOU KNOW, LIKE A HUGE TEMPLE OR, OR LIKE A PYRAMID OF GIZA.

I, YOU KNOW, I NEVER SAY NEVER, BECAUSE YOU NEVER, YOU NEVER KNOW.

BUT I THINK FOR THE MOST PART, YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT, WE'RE NOT GOING TO FIND ANOTHER PYRAMID, LIKE CUCKOOS, CERTAINLY OUT IN THE DESERT.

BUT OTHER SITES, MY COLLEAGUES HAVE FOUND TEMPLES, BUT THESE AREN'T LIKE MAGNIFICENT STRUCTURES, LIKE KARNAK.

THESE ARE FOUNDATIONS, YOU KNOW, SMALLER TEMPLE, SMALLER, SMALLER COLUMN BASES, BUT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF THE SITES THAT ARE OUT THERE, BUT YOU NEVER KNOW, I AM, LIKE I SAID, I'M ALWAYS HAPPY TO BE PROVED WRONG.

>> Bonnie: IS THERE ANY POSSIBILITY THAT ANY OF THE EIGHT WONDERS OF THE WORLD COULD BE DUG UP LIKE THE BRONZE STATUE IN GREECE SOMEWHERE, THAT AND PARTS OF WHICH WERE FOUND AND USED, YOU KNOW, MELTED DOWN, AND THE METAL WAS REUSED?

BUT ANYTHING LIKE THAT, THAT YOU THINK THAT YOU'RE LOOKING FOR THE ARK OF THE COVENANT ANSWER?

ANY OF THOSE THINGS?

>> Sarah: YOU KNOW, I THINK, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY, THE PYRAMIDS AT THE GIZA PYRAMIDS AT GIZA ARE THE ONLY WONDER OF THE WORLD.

YOU KNOW, WE SEE HINTS OF, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE SITES THAT ARE THAT ARE MENTIONED, YOU KNOW, THE HANGING GARDENS OF BABYLON, CERTAINLY THERE'S A LOT OF ARCHAEOLOGY LEFT TO DO AT THE SITE OF BABYLON.

BUT I THINK A LOT OF THE WONDERS ARE, ARE ARE SIMPLY GONE.

BUT YOU NEVER YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT ARCHAEOLOGISTS MIGHT FIND, YOU KNOW, THERE WAS JUST AN AMAZING DISCOVERY FOUND, I THINK IT WAS IRAQ WITH RECEDING WATERS, THERE WAS A MAJOR TEMPLE FROM THOUSANDS AND INSIGHT FROM THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO, THAT JUST APPEARED.

SO WITH CHANGING WATER TABLES, YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT MIGHT BE OUT THERE.

>> Bonnie: NOW CIVILIZATION CIVILIZATION ACTUALLY BEGAN BELIEVE IT WAS IRAQ, RIGHT?

UR?

THE CITY UR WHERE THE FIRST WRITING?CTUALLY, I LEARNED THAT WHILE UP AT YOUR ALMA MATER, YALE, I WAS INTERVIEWING A PROFESSOR UP THERE AND OLD OUT THESE DRAWERS OF YOU KNOW, OF THESE LITTLE ROUND SHAPED CLAY PIECES THAT THEY THAT THEY MADE BACK THEN.

AND THE FIRST EXAMPLES OF HUMAN WRITING, IN CLAY.

>> Sarah: EGYPTOLOGISTS WILL WILL DEBATE THAT SLIGHTLY IN THAT AROUND THE EXACT SAME TIME AT A SITE CALLED ABYDOS, WHICH IS NOT QUITE IN BETWEEN CAIRO AND LUXOR, BUT BUT PRETTY MUCH IN THE MIDDLE.

THERE WERE THE GRAVES OF EGYPT'S EARLIEST KINGS THAT RULED.

AND WE HAVE A LOT OF EXAMPLES OF EARLY WRITING FROM THERE.

SO WHAT CAME FIRST, THE CHICKEN OR THE EGG?

WHERE DID WRITING START?

I THINK IT'S FASCINATING THAT EARLY WRITING SYSTEMS EVOLVED.

IN SIMILAR PLACES AT AROUND THE SAME TIME, IT'S DEBATED THAT THEY HAVE CONTACT WITH EACH OTHER.

AGAIN, WE HAVE A LOT OF EVIDENCE LEFT TO UNCOVER.

BUT IT'S AMAZING THAT THESE GREAT CIVILIZATIONS, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY LAUNCHED WITH THE ADVENT OF WRITING ROUGHLY 5000 YEARS AGO, >> Bonnie: BUT EVEN IF IT'S A COMPETITION, FOR EXAMPLE, BETWEEN EGYPT AND AND IRAQ, IT'S STILL THE LEVANT AREA.

THE MIDDLE EAST.

SO WHY DO YOU THINK CIVILIZATION STARTED THERE?

>> Sarah: I THINK FOR CERTAINLY IN IN EGYPT, YOU KNOW, THINK OF EGYPT TODAY, IT'S A GIGANTIC OASIS, AND YOU HAVE AMAZING RESOURCES, YOU'VE GOT THE NILE RIVER, YOU KNOW, FLOODED PRETTY REGULARLY, IT'S GOOD, IT'S A GOOD PLACE TO, TO SETTLE, TO HAVE CROPS TO HAVE OTHER OTHER ANIMALS.

AND WHEN YOUR FOOD ISN'T AT RISK, WHEN YOU DON'T HAVE TO MIGRATE AND MOVE AROUND, YOU KNOW, CULTURE CAN REALLY EXPLODE AND YOU START GETTING LEADERS AND SPECIALISTS AND CRAFTS PEOPLE.

AND OVER TIME, THAT NATURALLY LEADS TO COMMUNICATION.

BECAUSE IF YOU WANT TO SEND, YOU KNOW, 300 JUGS OF WINE TO ANOTHER PLACE, AND MAKE SURE IT GETS THERE, YOU'VE GOT TO PUT MARKINGS ON IT, RIGHT, YOU'VE GOT TO START KEEPING TRACK OF THINGS.

IT'S ALL ABOUT BUSINESS AND BUREAUCRACY.

SO YOU CAN BLAME ALL THE GRIDLOCK IN WASHINGTON, D.C. ON EGYPT FROM 5000 YEARS AGO.

>> Bonnie: NOW, WITH DEVELOPING YOUR PROGRAM, AND GETTING I WOULD IMAGINE, HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS, IF NOT MILLIONS, OF SOCIAL MEDIA, USERS INVOLVED IN THE HUNT FOR OLD CIVILIZATION.

TELL ME WHAT IMPRINT YOU THINK YOU HAVE MADE ON YOUR FIELD?

AND, AND, AND HOW YOU HOPE THAT WILL CHANGE THINGS IN THE FUTURE.

>> Sarah: SO I HOPE YOU KNOW, BROADLY SPEAKING, YOU KNOW, GIVEN ALL THE CHALLENGES THAT WE'RE FACING RIGHT NOW, WITH, WITH CLIMATE CHANGE, WITH MIGRATION, WITH THE RISE OF NATIONALISM, THERE'S SO MUCH TENSION IN OUR SOCIETY, WHAT I HOPE THAT THE WORLD GETS OUT OF USING OUR CITIZEN SCIENCE PLATFORM, AND YOU KNOW, ME AND OTHERS SPEAKING MORE PUBLICLY ABOUT ARCHAEOLOGY IS THAT ARCHAEOLOGY MATTERS.

YOU KNOW, WHEN WE LEARN ABOUT THE PAST, WHEN WE'RE LOOKING AT THE EXTRAORDINARY ACHIEVEMENTS OF SO MANY ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS, WHETHER IT'S THE PYRAMIDS, WHETHER IT'S THIS AMAZING ART, WE'RE GAINING AN APPRECIATION FOR THE DIVERSITY OF CULTURE, AND ALL THE AMAZING THINGS THAT PEOPLE DIFFERENT CULTURES CAN BRING TO THE TABLE AND HOW THEY'VE HELPED OUR SOCIETY TO EVOLVE.

SO BY YOU KNOW, GROUNDING US AND GIVING US THAT SENSE OF PERSPECTIVE, I REALLY WANT IT TO GIVE PEOPLE SOME HOPE.

I DON'T WANT TO BE POLLYANNA AND BE LIKE, EVERYTHING'S GOING TO BE FINE.

WE DON'T NEED TO DO ANYTHING.

BUT WHEN WE'RE WHEN WE'RE AFRAID, WHEN WE WHEN WE'RE, YOU KNOW, GROUND DOWN BY EVERYTHING THAT'S GOING ON AROUND US, WE'RE STUCK, WE CAN'T SEE PAST THAT.

AND THAT'S WHAT I WANT ARCHAEOLOGY TO GIVE US SOME PERSPECTIVE.

SO WE CAN HAVE A LITTLE HOPE AND GET UNSTUCK.

AND THINK, OKAY, WE'RE RESILIENT, WE'RE CREATIVE.

THIS IS PART OF WHO WE ARE.

>> Bonnie: AND DO YOU THINK YOU -- I SAW MENTIONED SOMEWHERE THAT YOU BELIEVE THE FUTURE IS, -- CAN BE PREDICTED TO A CERTAIN EXTENT BY THE PAST?

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> Sarah: SO YOU KNOW, THE WORLD IS CYCLICAL, RIGHT?

YOU KNOW, WE'RE ONE OF THE WHAT DID THE PRINCESS BRIDE SAY?

NEVER START A WAR IN ASIA.

AND IT NEVER ENDS.

I THINK BY UNDERSTANDING THE PAST, BUT UNDERSTANDING PATTERNS OF LEADERSHIP.

YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU STUDY ANCIENT EGYPT, THE PHARAOHS WERE ALL BRAGGING ON WALLS AND MAKING GROSS EXAGGERATIONS, AND NOTHING APPEARS TO HAVE CHANGED IN THOUSANDS OF YEARS, JUST A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT WALL THAT PEOPLE ARE POSTING ON.

SO BY UNDERSTANDING LEADERSHIP BY UNDERSTANDING HOW PEOPLE'S REACTED TO PERIODS OF CLIMATE CHANGE, I THINK IT CAN GIVE US A BETTER SENSE OF WHERE WE ARE NOW AND WHERE WE MIGHT GO, WHERE THERE'S ALL THIS TALK OF SPACE EXPLORATION, AND THE TERMINOLOGIES WE'RE USING ARE REFLECTIVE OF 500 YEARS PLUS OF VERY COLONIALIST EXPLORATION, WE NEED NEW TERMINOLOGIES, WE NEED NEW WAYS OF THINKING ABOUT EXPLORING.

ARCHAEOLOGY, SO I'M HOPEFUL THAT BY STUDYING AND BY CREATING NEW VOCABULARIES, YOU KNOW, WE CAN THINK BETTER ABOUT HOW WE MAY EXPLORE NOT JUST HERE BUT OTHER WORLDS.

>> Bonnie: BEYOND WHAT YOU JUST EXPLAINED, WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO?

WHAT KIND OF INPUT WOULD YOU LIKE TO MAKE THEM A FIELD DISCOVERING A MAJOR CIVILIZATION OR YOU TELL ME, >> Sarah: I THINK, YOU KNOW, IF THE IMPACT THAT I CAN HAVE ON ON THE FIELD IN THE WORLD IS GETTING COUNTRIES AND GOVERNMENTS TO INVEST MORE IN CULTURAL HERITAGE, YOU KNOW, THE CULTURAL HERITAGE, THERE'S A BIG REPORT THAT JUST CAME OUT AND SAID, IT WAS SOMETHING LIKE AN 80 OR HUNDRED BILLION DOLLAR A YEAR INDUSTRY, FOR EVERY DOLLAR THAT'S INVESTED IN HERITAGE AND ARCHAEOLOGY, YOU KNOW, GETS GETS RETURNED TENFOLD OR MORE.

BY VISITING THESE SITES, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU STAND THERE IN FRONT OF THE PYRAMIDS OF GIZA, NO MATTER WHO YOU ARE, NO MATTER WHAT YOUR POLITICAL BENT IS, IT DOESN'T MATTER.

YOU CAN'T HELP BUT FEEL AWE AND FEEL SO IN DEBT TO THESE AMAZING PEOPLE THAT CAME BEFORE US.

SO, BROADLY SPEAKING, I WANT TO MAKE PEOPLE FEEL AWE AGAIN, I WANT TO MAKE PEOPLE FEEL, FEEL THAT THEY CAN BE INSPIRED BY THE GREAT ACHIEVEMENTS OF EVERYONE THAT CAME BEFORE US.

YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT NECESSARILY WHAT WE FIND, IT'S WHAT WE FIND OUT.

AND WHAT WE FIND OUT IS THAT WE'RE THE SAME PEOPLE THAT LIVED IN EAST AFRICA 300 YEARS AGO, WE'RE STILL THE SAME SPECIES 300,000 YEARS AGO.

SO YOU KNOW, IN SPITE OF OUR IPHONES IN SPITE OF OUR TECHNOLOGY, WE'RE A COMMUNITY BASED SPECIES.

AND I HOPE PEOPLE BY UNDERSTANDING THE PAST CAN UNDERSTAND THAT AND MAYBE IT'LL HELP TO BRING US TOGETHER A LITTLE BIT MORE.

>> Bonnie: TERRIFIC.

THANK YOU SO MUCH, SARAH PARK I REALLY APPRECIATE YOUR TIME, AND WHAT YOU'RE DOING FOR THE WORLD.

>> Sarah: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME HERE.

>> Bonnie: AND THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION OF TO THE CONTRARY, PLEASE FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER AND VISIT OUR WEBSITE PBS.ORG.

SLASH TO THE CONTRARY, AND WHETHER YOU AGREE OR THINK TO THE CONTRARY.

SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

CONTRARY.