[Music] >> Hello, and welcome to Generation Grit.

I'm your host, Sedrick Avenue.

Chances are you've heard the term cancel culture as it's becoming a term used in our everyday lives.

Something we hear less about, though, is restorative justice.

Tonight, we'll learn about both from the perspective of three local high school students and an expert on the matter to give us some added insight.

You guys want to introduce yourselves?

>> Sure, my name is Jerry Portillo, and I'm coming from York International.

>> My name is Layla Rodriguez-Johnson, and I'm coming from Rangeview.

>> I'm Abigail Lacrue, and I'm from West High School.

>> And you guys are all representing the Denver Urban Debate League, right?

>> Yes.

>> And that's the DUDL for short?

>> Mm-hm.

>> All right.

Well, we have a video here.

We're gonna check out your mission.

[Music] >> Denver Urban Debate League programs break barriers for underserved students by enriching educational and personal outcomes.

Urban Debate engages students, offering them experiences they can't always get in the classroom.

Speech and debate programs teach students to develop a growth mindset.

A set of attitudes that's strongly associated with success in life and fostering academic skills and resiliency.

DUDL exists to ensure students graduate from and accel in high school and beyond.

DUDL students become active and engaged citizens, well versed in issues of equity and public policy, equipped to interact critically with the world around them, make a difference in their communities, and add more diverse voices to our civil discourse.

Over the last ten years, almost 100% of DUDL participants graduated on time, a radical improvement over their school and district averages.

Over half of DUDL students enroll in college, outperform school district rates by 24%.

Some even receive debate scholarships to institutions like Yale and the University of Denver.

>> Riana Roston is joining us virtually.

Rihanna is a passionate DEI and antiracism educator with a background in education, human service, and social justice.

Riana guides her work under four core values, identity, diversity, restorative practice, and power.

She's also the founder of the DEI and antiracism development program.

It's called Commune in Color, which applies these core values to the lives and work of individuals, families, communities, and organizations fighting for equality.

Riana, thanks for being here tonight.

Can you help us kick off with some context?

What's the relationship between cancel culture and restorative justice?

>> Yeah.

Awesome.

Thank you so much for having me here.

I'm excited to join you all today.

For me, the reward relationship is an interesting word to use, but I guess there's always a relationship, even amongst things that are opposites.

For me, when I think about cancel culture, cancel culture is this space where your story ends at the mistake you made, whereas restorative justice is a space where you really get to think about how your mistake is supposed to go into you learning more, and being a better person, and showing up more for your community.

So, those are some of the differences for me in that relationship between the two.

>> What are some of the consequences that occur when society rejects someone?

>> Ooh.

I think sometimes what we see, and I think this could be represented in many ways, is that that person who feels rejected kinda goes further into that rejection space, right?

So, a lot of times, let's even use our justice system.

What we see is that a lot of times, people who go to prison and then leave prison and are not welcome into the community.

Maybe they're not able to get jobs.

Maybe their family situations are broken, and they're not reintegrated.

What happens is that a lot of people end up back in those circumstances, or back in prison, for example.

And so for me, what I see will happen a lot of times just in communities.

When people aren't welcomed back into that community, the lessons that could of went into that person being different aren't learned and that person kind of gets stuck in being ostracized as opposed to learning and doing something different to be a part of that community.

>> Now, let's get some insight from our panel.

I saw you agree.

I saw you nodding your head the whole time.

>> I do agree with a lot of the statements that she made because I think it really depends on certain people.

If you don't feel welcome in your community, you know, it's kind of hard to feel that you can build, or grow, or go on to a different path.

When you are more welcomed into your community, you might want to make that change, make that difference to go on that different path.

I feel like with restorative justice, that gives you that chance to be able to go in and be able to make that difference to make a chance to go on a different path and you're not stuck on that same path.

>> You were agreeing later.

You weren't agreeing at first, then you started nodding.

>> Yeah, I started nodding because something that Riana said about reintegrating into society.

I feel like that's such an important thing.

I think that cancel culture-- I think that cancel culture can be really harmful for people, especially when you're taking them out of a community that they were born into because of maybe one mistake that they did.

I think that it's super important to allow people to be able to grow and to make the changes that they need to make in our lives.

I think that second chances are a super big thing and that a lot of us wouldn't continue to be a part of society now if weren't at some point in our lives given a second chance.

>> Have you ever had a second chance?

>> I've definitely needed a lot of second chances.

If I didn't get second chances, I wouldn't be where I am today.

>> Right.

>> Definitely.

>> Do you have any personal experiences that make you interested in this topic?

Do any of you?

>> Cancel culture was first brought to me when I was watching YouTube around, you know, like, you hear about your favorite YouTuber and they got canceled, so I was like, "I wonder who-- What is cancel culture?

What is this?

Why are they getting canceled?"

So, I went and did some research on my own and got to find out there were things that this person had done that were not good, not a good thing morally, and so it got them canceled on the Internet.

So, I started to see how other people were becoming canceled.

I feel like with restorative justice, some of these people were able to come out and apologize, talk about how they made the mistakes, and how later on they changed those mistakes and have gone on to a different path because they had second chances with being talked to, being told these aren't right so they were able to change their past mistakes.

I've seen this mostly media when it comes to movie directors, even songwriters.

>> They get canceled like every week.

>> Exactly.

Because of past things that they said or things that they say recently.

>> Do you think that if you said something 10 years ago, is it possible that you're a different person in the time that past?

>> I think it depends on what actions you've taken to fix and learn from what you said previously.

I know that there have been some instances of people being canceled for saying the N-word when they were like in the fifth or sixth grade, and they go on 10, 15 years later and they don't say that anymore.

They learned from what-- they've learned from the mistakes that they've made in the past.

I think that those people don't deserve to be canceled if you show a certain level of growth.

>> Do you ever want to cancel anybody?

Have you ever been like, they should be canceled?

>> Well, fortunately, I kind of stay off social media as a whole, so I hear about it a lot.

I think similar to what Abigail said is that a lot of people-- you hear about YouTubers and politicians getting canceled.

I've always wondered, is that really the best way that they could've gone about this?

So, I definitely don't see that as a reasonable solution to anything.

>> I think that just social networks, in general, are the driving force in a lot of this.

A lot of this never gets heard or seen if you guys don't repost it, retweet it, remix it, TikTok it, you know?

Riana, what does restorative justice look like in action?

>> Yeah, I heard someone say, and this is something that's easier said than done, but I heard someone say sometime, one time long ago, that restorative justice really means that no one is discardable.

So, in action to me, that really looks like we've done everything we possibly can to put a learning opportunity in place to make sure that these individuals grow.

We've really went above and beyond to maintain our community because we believe that no one is discardable, that people can change, and people can do better, and people can be a part of our community.

So, for me, it really means those above and beyond efforts to maintain our community, and depending upon what your community is, how you do that can be diverse.

Your methodology for maintaining your community can be diverse, but just making it intentional that everyone is going to be a part of the community and we're gonna flesh out our differences optimally is really what's key for me.

>> How do you guys think this helps the individual?

>> I think that restorative justice, giving someone a second chance, giving them-- letting them know that they're not disposable, that they matter is such an important thing.

I think everybody deserves to know that they belong someplace in the world.

>> Yeah, and with that, I think when people are canceled, they kind of get ostracized.

A lot of times, I think that can lead to anger in that person.

Let's say you did something wrong and now, nobody likes you.

Nobody talks to you.

Now, there's something wrong and now your upset about it.

You're not going to-- It doesn't give you an opportunity to improve, or you don't want to improve because you feel that everyone doesn't like you.

>> I agree.

I feel like that could build a lot of resentment in somebody towards their community and that can build into other things, snowball effect.

I feel like, like you said, I completely agree.

Nobody is, like what Riana said too, nobody is discardable in that aspect when you talk about restorative justice in that way.

That's good because everybody needs to feel that they belong at least somewhere.

>> How do you guys think that restorative justice supports the community as a whole?

>> It gives the whole community a second chance because if you are unable to give people second chances like she said, anybody can be discardable.

If you're able to give that community builders together, you're not leaving anybody behind.

You're helping each other and you're not looking at it as we're just gonna discard this one person because they made that one mistake.

It can help everybody think what are they going through?

What is happening in their mind at that moment?

It makes everybody think together.

Think of what are they thinking?

What do they want to do?

Do they want to make a change?

It brings that communication in because if you have all these questions, you have to talk through them and be able to build as a community and not just as an individual.

>> If one person's broke in the group, if y'all are a group-- if we're all a group and I'm broken, is the whole group broken or am I just broken?

>> Depends on the way you think about it.

>> I only ask because I think that giving people second chances is a reflection of how we feel about each other.

If you don't give people second chances, then it's like you don't like people?

You don't want people around?

But if you're giving people second chances-- If you've got a puppy, you're gonna give a puppy a million chances because you want it around, right?

I think that we lack that same compassion.

How do you think restorative justice affects the community as a whole, or helps the community, or does it?

>> I think restorative justice really aims at giving healing to the victim as well.

I think the judicial system currently doesn't really allow for that.

Sending somebody off to prison because you killed my cousin or something, doesn't really give me a sense of fulfillment.

Now, I just know that you've gone to prison, but I think restorative justice really gives the opportunity for me to heal and for you to really atone for your sin according to what you did wrong.

Going to jail is just such a blanket punishment.

I think if you have something that is specific to your crime, you can learn from it.

>> We've mentioned-- I feel like it's gravitating towards jail.

We've mentioned jail, incarceration a couple times.

How do you think the current criminal justice system affects these practices that were talking about?

How does jail affect restorative justice or vice versa?

How can-- Do you think that you can go into a jail, and talk to a violent offender, and tell him that you're going to give them a second chance in society, and that they can go out there and function in society?

Do you think that?

All crimes are different.

>> Yeah, I think it's something, as you were saying, all kinds are different-- I think it's something that depends on who it is.

I think for the majority, smaller, nonviolent crimes, I think it's very easy for you to send them back into society and them able to be a contributing member of society.

I think for people who have committed more violent crimes, it'll take more work with restorative justice to be able to implement them back into society, but I also think that sending them to prison for the rest of their lives with no form of rehabilitation is not doing anybody any good, especially them, and especially the victims.

>> On a smaller scale, even like school, do y'all-- You had mentioned when we briefly spoke that you don't see kids get suspended as much anymore.

They have different ways of taking care of it, but you also mentioned that it doesn't work for all of the kids, right?

>> I feel like restorative justice can work for certain people.

It's just not something that you can say is gonna work for everybody.

Everybody is so different that when you are talking about restorative justice, you can tell one person not to do something, and that person may listen, but the next person might be completely different and not listen that same way, and so it's not kind of set for everybody.

Some people might need an alternative way to kind of learn that that's wrong.

It's like the saying I was speaking about earlier is don't touch the hot stove.

Some people-- everybody might just need to touch the hot stove to learn that it's hot.

Some people just don't like to be told.

It's kind of-- It's like a different kind of thing for each individual person.

Just like the circumstance of like the crime, it really depends on the crime and the person, really the circumstance for sure.

It's not just one fits all.

>> Riana, how do you think our current criminal justice system affects these practices?

>> I can use a real example.

I'm currently doing some work with the conflict center with the Denver District Attorney's Office around how we can implement the restorative practice philosophy and the restorative justice philosophy, especially in those cases where you are talking about with these lower-level spaces and lower-level crimes where people are going through a system that maybe is inappropriate.

For me, when I think about restorative justice, I have to always name that it's not a quick fix, it's not an easy fix, it's not something that goes with every single situation.

On the opposite coin, our justice system as it's designed [indiscernible] isn't a quick fix, or an easy fix, or something that should go with every situation.

I like to think about people being nuanced and diverse, and all of those approaches needing a different approach.

So, I like to think of restorative justice as a way to say maybe the regular criminal justice system as it is, this type of punishment for this type of crime, doesn't make sense, so we need another alternative to respond to this.

I like to really think about our justice system just needing to be more expansive.

These restorative justice efforts being one additional tool that's been developed so that not just getting everybody the same thing because people need different things and different situations need different things as well.

>> Riana, can you share a story about a time in which you saw these practices work?

>> Definitely.

In my work with the Denver district attorney's office, what we would find more times than not is that there would be, and I'm trying to maintain confidentiality with these cases as well, too, but there's definitely matters where someone is in there for something that you would maybe feel is minuscule in somebody's grand scheme of their life and the mistakes they can make.

Maybe graffitiing a neighborhood for example.

So, a tough consequence could be like having this on your record and it's preventing you for maybe getting a scholarship somewhere, it's preventing you from doing things that we did have people who, this student in particular, who was up against a lot of odds for doing this, and what the restorative justice system was able to do in lieu of having that, what's the word, that conviction on his label, was able to really make it so that he could go through a process of actually thinking about how can the harm be repaired?

What can I do to make amends for the harm that I caused?

So, it's not just me getting a consequence and doing my time per se, but I'm actually having to make amends with those I've harmed, and now because of this, I don't have to carry the stigma and the label that will prevent me from moving on with my future, from getting that scholarship, from going to do the other things that I wanted to do.

So for me, I think those are the moments, especially where it's like we can stop somebody's opportunities way before it's necessary if we just jump to a harsh consequence that maybe isn't reflective of what's happened, and a greater lesson can be learned on the other side of it.

>> What do you guys think about that?

>> I definitely agree.

Now that I'm in my senior year, we all are in our senior year, you start looking at applications and I think every application I've looked at asks if you have a criminal history, or if you got a suspension, or whatever, and then you have to write and explain that.

I'm sure that probably negatively impacts your application.

So now-- >> That's on every job application, too.

>> Right.

So, there you go.

Like she said with the graffiti example, let's say I go graffiti something.

Now, that's like affect me for the rest of my life when really, it could be just a foolish mistake.

I could go through restorative justice, like clean off graffiti or something that directly deals with what I did, and then have that cleared off so I don't have to deal with that for the rest of my life.

>> Do you think that it's important to clear things?

To say it how you just said it, to clear your conscious?

Do you think that it's better to make amends, if you do the graffiti, to clean the graffiti?

Do you think that's more valuable than having to do something else?

>> Most definitely.

I think it makes more sense for me to, as a graffiti person, if I go around doing that, to clean graffiti rather than pay a fine or go to jail.

Those punishments don't really fit the crime that I did.

That way, you more directly interact with what you did, and I think that probably makes you less likely to re-offend.

>> So, how do you all hope to see the practice of restorative justice develop in society?

>> I feel like-- I hope to see more second chances to see more people feel that they can be welcome even after making a mistake.

They're not going to be shunned, those kinds of things, but also to learn that if you continue to keep doing those things, it's not like you're going to continue to be just let go off the hook or have an easier way out.

There will be probably further consequences going forward, but I feel like it's good to have that first step of okay, you're not going to be punished right off the bat.

You're not going to be shunned from society in that sense right away because you made one mistake.

I hope to see that happen more with other people because it grows for younger ones to see higher role models like wow, they made a mistake, but they made a difference to make that change and people can change.

I feel like that's also a very big question is can people change?

>> Do you-- In your personal life even, how do you feel if somebody paints on your house?

Not even an insult, they just-- some kid paints on your house.

Do you think that it's very important for that person to have to come clean it off?

Do you think that they should have to come look at you and talk to you about it?

Or do you think that it should be up to the police or somebody to figure out who did it and what happened?

>> I definitely think that keeping the police out of it as much as possible is always the best thing to go, or best way to go because, as we were talking about before, having one small incident on your record can affect the rest of your life.

It can affect what school you get into, and it can affect how you get a job or if you get a job and stuff like that.

I definitely think that having that person come back and apologize for it, and in cleaning up what they did, trying their best to remedy the situation is the best way to go.

Making sure that they are held accountable for what they did, but also give them a chance to make what they did right instead of just canceling their entire life and not letting them-- not giving them the opportunity to grow from the situation.

>> You're the principal.

You're the principal of the school.

It's your senior year now, right?

>> Right.

>> You're the principal next year.

You come back, you're the principal.

What do you tell freshmen about cancel culture?

What do you tell freshmen about restorative justice?

>> I think in schools as a whole, and I would say I'm not a principal, I don't really know-- >> You're the principal.

>> What would you tell them?

>> I think, as a principal, I'd want to have a system where students, like I mentioned earlier, where they more directly impact or interact with what they did.

So, instead of just suspending everyone because I don't think-- Similar to the justice system of going to jail, I don't think that really teaches students the right lesson.

I think I would want the freshman, or anyone in the school, to instead of just being suspended, interact with what they did and really try to make amends with the crime that they committed specifically.

>> Your sister.

What would you tell your sister you learned about restorative justice so far versus cancel culture because she's different.

She doesn't have your same opinion, right?

>> I feel like I would talk to her about how in cancel culture anybody makes mistakes.

I make mistakes.

Even though me and her are very different, I still make mistakes, and that her mistakes can always kind of be-- She can look back on them, and if she decides that she wants to go back and work on those things, that she definitely can because people like me, I'm for sure always gonna be there for her and I always want to be there for her for sure.

I would definitely tell her that cancel culture, for sure, that when she makes a mistake, to go back in restorative justice and she has to go back and look and really think about what she had did, and like he said, go back and really-- Sorry, I can't think of the word that you used.

Kind of-- What is the word?

I can't think of the word.

>> That's fine.

Use another word.

What are you trying to say?

>> Doing something to kind of-- I can't think of any of the words right now.

Sorry.

>> It's all right.

>> Whatever she did-- Whatever she did to make that mistake, to go back and be able to-- to go back and be able to clean up what she did, or go back and apologize, and really think about it because I feel like when she gets punished in other ways, she doesn't really get to think about it, sit there and think about what she had done or what she had said, or what was anything about the situation.

She thinks more of it happened, now I'm in trouble, and I'm doing this.

I feel for her to hear that.

Go back and you're gonna think about it and that situation and what you did wrong.

I think that, to her, would be a big difference if she has to think about it.

Now, she has to think about it and she's in that situation now.

It's not just her thinking back on it like, eh, well, it happened.

>> Well, I think that you guys are all very insightful and you got a lot to say about cancel culture and restorative justice.

I think accountability is a thing that people don't look at, and I really hope that people listen to students and to kids in the community more than they speak for you all because they don't sit in the classes.

They don't deal in the schools.

Your teachers don't even sit in the classes how you sit in the classes.

That's all the time we have for now.

Thank you to our panelists and our panel expert for sharing space with us tonight.

I hope you will continue your research on this very important issue.

I'm Sedrick Avenue, and on behalf of all of us here at PBS 12, Thank you for joining us.

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